HGH cruise dose

[crispybacon!]

come on man , this has been exhaustively discussed and if you actually used the search function you're gonna find the answer, but im sure ol Ghoul will chime in.

How about you give me a tip on what to search for rather than giving me shit and assuming I’m not reading/searching through these threads? Or maybe, say nothing?

This is the first I’ve seen of the specific age-related implications that @Ghoul just shared. And my question is very much in relation to that. As someone in their 50s, I’m very interested in how to maximize my use of HGH while mitigating risk.

 

[Ateam2023]

How about you give me a tip on what to search for rather than giving me shit and assuming I’m not reading/searching through these threads? Or maybe, say nothing?

This is the first I’ve seen of the specific age-related implications that @Ghoul just shared. And my question is very much in relation to that. As someone in their 50s, I’m very interested in how to maximize my use of HGH while mitigating risk.

its not my turn.

 

[lilhawk]

How about you give me a tip on what to search for rather than giving me shit and assuming I’m not reading/searching through these threads? Or maybe, say nothing?

This is the first I’ve seen of the specific age-related implications that @Ghoul just shared. And my question is very much in relation to that. As someone in their 50s, I’m very interested in how to maximize my use of HGH while mitigating risk.

I run GH(Serostim) higher when cutting. 8-10iu and I run that for 4-5 months, then drop down to 3-4iu. Next year I'm planning on running it at 8-10iu for 6 months starting in March all the way through summer. One thing I recommend running with it is Reta as it completely eliminated any BG issues at just 2mg per week. I am in my 40's.

 

[crispybacon!]

I run GH higher when cutting. 8-10iu and I run that for 4-5 months, then drop down to 3-4iu. Next year I'm planning on running it at 8-10iu for 6 months starting in March all the way through summer. One thing I recommend running with it is Reta as it completely eliminated any BG issues at just 2mg per week. I am in my 40's.

Thanks! Do you know where the 8-10iu and 3-4iu, put your IGF?

I’ve been running 4ius for about 6 weeks and will be getting bloodwork done next week to see where my IGF is relative to baseline (176). But I wasn’t aware of the age-related thresholds, so we’ll see if 4ius puts me in the higher risk category. If so, I’ll dial it back.

Also taking 5mg reta every 5 days.

 

[adrenalytic]

I run GH(Serostim) higher when cutting. 8-10iu and I run that for 4-5 months, then drop down to 3-4iu. Next year I'm planning on running it at 8-10iu for 6 months starting in March all the way through summer. One thing I recommend running with it is Reta as it completely eliminated any BG issues at just 2mg per week. I am in my 40's.

AM fasted cardio is also a big helper. I take 2 IU every morning with baseline BG of 80. After cardio it has only risen to 86. I test it on off cardio days and BG goes upper 90s (fasted). I could only imagine with higher doses...

(edit: also in my 40's)

 

[malfeasance]

You can see on the chart your levels can be much higher, and even when exceeding them, excess IGF can be "absorbed" into normal growth so problems would take much longer to develop at 20 than someone at 50 running 1.5x.

With age the excess IGF becomes increasingly likely to cause abnormal circus freak growth.

Any idea why?

Also, does this mean poor responders can get away with more growth hormone than high responders?

I am always shocked at the different response levels.

I am 58 and on 3 iu - I have not tested recently, but historically I have not been a good responder, with low IGF-1 results. Likewise, my natty levels are low (83, I think, last time I tested).

 

[Ateam2023]

Any idea why?

Also, does this mean poor responders can get away with more growth hormone than high responders?

I am always shocked at the different response levels.

I am 58 and on 3 iu - I have not tested recently, but historically I have not been a good responder, with low IGF-1 results. Likewise, my natty levels are low (83, I think, last time I tested).

Why don't you get a igf test and see how your numbers are currently?

 

[Raiders789]

Any idea why?

Also, does this mean poor responders can get away with more growth hormone than high responders?

I am always shocked at the different response levels.

I am 58 and on 3 iu - I have not tested recently, but historically I have not been a good responder, with low IGF-1 results. Likewise, my natty levels are low (83, I think, last time I tested).

I'm really curious about this too.

I just came off cycle, but was doing 5IUs all pinned before bed and that had my IGF1 at 330. So definitely a poor responder. But based on the ULN for me(20), do you think I should try to target that 430ng/mL? Realistically, do you think the difference in gains would be significantly different at those two IGF-1 levels? i.e. how much of an effect does IGF-1 really have on hypertrophy/hyperplasia and recovery?

I felt really good at 5IU, recovery was great and felt really full while not holding too much water. Blood glucose has never been an issue since I'm on a pretty big dose of reta, actually experienced the opposite and took getting a cgm to see that I was getting reactive hypoglycemia whenever I'd take berberine(so I cut it out). Now cruising on 3IU, curious to see where this puts my IGF1 so I think I'll stay here for a few weeks then start slowly bumping it up and time it so I'm at ~6 when I start the next blast.

 

[KOArtist]

The way risk is measured is by IGF-1 level for your age, not the dose of rHGH.

Find your ULN (upper limit of normal) IGF based on assay type(ie lab that performed the test):

View attachment 345268

Your risk of developing signs of acromegaly depends on how much higher than the ULN you are:

View attachment 345269

At 1.3x ULN acromegaly features could begin to develop at between 2-5 years if you sustain IGF this high.

At 1.5x initial features can develop at 2 years.

2x starting at 1 year.

Above 2x acromegaly can begin to develop in less than a year,

First is soft and connective tissue, lips, nose, ears, organs, fully (lips) or partially (cartilage) reversible if you stop in time.

Then bone changes slowly over time, forehead, chin, teeth begin to misalign, irreversible.

It happens so slowly even family members often miss it for 5+ years.

When would be the best time for a last pin before getting IGF tested?

 

[Ghoul]

When would be the best time for a last pin before getting IGF tested?

In the morning, before the day's dose.

At least 2 weeks after starting or changing dose, but 4 is better,

(For a baseline measurement when not using rHGH, any time is fine. Blood levels reflect the average of the last 24-36 hours and are stable. There's a brief spike shortly after injection that gives a deceptively high IGF.).

 

[adrenalytic]

There's a brief spike shortly after injection that gives a deceptively high IGF

Incidentally, this is a great way to hobo test your GH. Pop 10 IUs about 90 minutes before blood draw. Results should come back over 300. If not, your gear is bunk or underdosed.

 

[Elektrobot]

If one were to only run higher HGH for a shorter period of 6mos or less, then drop to a dose that is <1.2 ULN, does that mitigate the risk? Or is there a permanent impact from the higher dose, even if not visible and if you ever resume at a higher dose, you are essentially picking up where you left off in terms of potential side effects?

This information is only revealed to new members who follow proper forum etiquette, read the instructions that are laid out for them, understand the rules, use the search feature..... and most importantly, post a new member introduction in the appropriate place.

 

[Elektrobot]

Results should come back over 300

I thought it was a GH serum test, and looking for 30ng/ml

 

[adrenalytic]

I thought it was a GH serum test, and looking for 30ng/ml

Nah, you test your IGF-1. The serum test wouldn't tell you anything about potency, just indicates the presence of GH.

 

[Ateam2023]

Nah, you test your IGF-1. The serum test wouldn't tell you anything about potency, just indicates the presence of GH.

you have it mixed up , i thought that if you did the serum test , you find out "if" your hgh is potent by the test result, if its lower than say 30 ish ng/ml, then not as good as say 50 ish ng/ml . to many things dictate igf1 readings(which are somewhat meaningless) . idk so many myths surrounding hgh and potency. And then theres that "dimer" fella always fn things up.

 

[Elektrobot]

Nah, you test your IGF-1. The serum test wouldn't tell you anything about potency, just indicates the presence of GH.

Maybe there is "potency" in how much of the desired effect (igf) it provides, and "potency" in how much GH is actually in the dose.

Potency defined by how much of the desired effect it provides can be impacted by other factors such as estradiol, calorie intake, presence of insulin....

Potency defined by how much GH is in a dose can be directly measured with a GH serum test.

 

[adrenalytic]

i thought that if you did the serum test , you find out "if" your hgh is potent by the test result, if its lower than say 30 ish ng/ml, then not as good as say 50 ish ng/ml .

The serum works only as a presence/response test, not an absolute potency assay. A “low” reading could mean bad HGH, but it could also mean poor timing of the test or individual variation.

to many things dictate igf1 readings(which are somewhat meaningless) .

I mean, technically, IGF-1 reading indicates chronic GH exposure over time, not just a single injection so it's obviously not the best way to test your stuff (I did say it was a hobo method)

And yes, it's true that IGF-1 is influenced by age, nutrition, liver function, and genetics, which is why some dismiss it as “meaningless.” But if you compare your baseline IGF-1 vs. IGF-1 on GH, a rise is strong evidence your GH is active.

If you really want hard numbers, send it to Jano because neither of these methods alone are indicators of accurate dosing.

idk so many myths surrounding hgh and potency. And then theres that "dimer" fella always fn things up.

Agreed. Dimers really muddy the waters.

 

[adrenalytic]

Maybe there is "potency" in how much of the desired effect (igf) it provides, and "potency" in how much GH is actually in the dose.

Potency defined by how much of the desired effect it provides can be impacted by other factors such as estradiol, calorie intake, presence of insulin....

Potency defined by how much GH is in a dose can be directly measured with a GH serum test.

Personally, I don't care how much GH is in my blood stream. The amount of IGF-1 my liver secretes is what I'm interested in. Trying to correlate one with the other is a moving target as I don't believe it's a 1:1 every pulse (could be wrong here, have to check this).

 

[Ghoul]

If one were to only run higher HGH for a shorter period of 6mos or less, then drop to a dose that is <1.2 ULN, does that mitigate the risk? Or is there a permanent impact from the higher dose, even if not visible and if you ever resume at a higher dose, you are essentially picking up where you left off in terms of potential side effects?

There are a lot of variables. How high is high? How long?

Elevated bone turnover markers can appear within 2 weeks of supraphysiological levels of IGF, but it takes time for actual changes in bone structure to be detectable.

4x ULN. By 6 months most will experience initial irreversible bone changes. partially irreversible soft tissue changes occur earlier.

3x ULN. Stopping by 4 months would usually be completely reversible. But maybe not if you're "sensitive" to IGF.

Because effects require time to develop no matter how high the dose, 3 months at any level is going to be reversible within 3 to 4 months after returning 1x ULN. Seems to me if you want to run high doses safely, limit it to 3 months.

As far as "cycling", and whether it fully resets the "clock" of high dose overgrowth risk., we're moving into territory there's no good scientific info on, because it doesn't resemble anything like the way medicine uses rHGH, or acromegaly works in folks with that disorder,

We're on our own, and all I can do is draw conclusions from the mechanisms of action.

So yes, if you run 15iu a day for 3 months hitting 4x ULN IGF-1, any changes you observe will fully reverse 3-4 months after returning to below the ULN.

However, without getting excessively technical, suffice to say the groundwork for undesirable changes has been laid, in bone, cartilage, and organs, It's work that won't have to be repeated on the next high dose cycle. Like pouring a foundation, starting to construct a building, and during the break back to normal IGF, tearing down the frame you started to build, but the foundation is still there. So to some extent, the next cycle is picking up where the last one left off.

Are 2x 3 month high dose cycles with a 3 month break better than a single 6 month run. Yes.

Could you keep doing this without seriously risking acromegaly. No. Each cycle is cumulatively increasing risk. Not as fast as continuous high IGF, but it's increasing with each cycle.

My guess is we'll eventually see some "Cumulative exposure over X years limit. IE over 5 years no more than 6 months total exposure at 4x ULN (no more than 3 months in a row without a break), 12 months at 3x (no more than 6 months in a row), 18 months at 2x (no more than 9 months), 36 at 1.5x (no more than 18 months), continuous use below 1.3x.

These are (mostly) arbitrary exposure limits (except below 1.3x indefinite), but I think a useful way to think about running high doses until we get more info on long term use at supraphysiological IGF levels.

 

[adrenalytic]

There are a lot of variables. How high is high? How long?

Elevated bone turnover markers can appear within 2 weeks of supraphysiological levels of IGF, but it takes time for actual changes in bone structure to be detectable.

4x ULN. By 6 months most will experience initial irreversible bone changes. partially irreversible soft tissue changes occur earlier.

3x ULN. Stopping by 4 months would usually be completely reversible. But maybe not if you're "sensitive" to IGF.

Because effects require time to develop no matter how high the dose, 3 months at any level is going to be reversible within 3 to 4 months after returning 1x ULN. Seems to me if you want to run high doses safely, limit it to 3 months.

As far as "cycling", and whether it fully resets the "clock" of high dose overgrowth risk., we're moving into territory there's no good scientific info on, because it doesn't resemble anything like the way medicine uses rHGH, or acromegaly works in folks with that disorder,

We're on our own, and all I can do is draw conclusions from the mechanisms of action.

So yes, if you run 15iu a day for 3 months hitting 4x ULN IGF-1, any changes you observe will fully reverse 3-4 months after returning to below the ULN.

However, without getting excessively technical, suffice to say the groundwork for undesirable changes has been laid, in bone, cartilage, and organs, It's work that won't have to be repeated on the next high dose cycle. Like pouring a foundation, starting to construct a building, and during the break back to normal IGF, tearing down the frame you started to build, but the foundation is still there. So to some extent, the next cycle is picking up where the last one left off.

Are 2x 3 month high dose cycles with a 3 month break better than a single 6 month run. Yes.

Could you keep doing this without seriously risking acromegaly. No. Each cycle is cumulatively increasing risk. Not as fast as continuous high IGF, but it's increasing with each cycle.

My guess is we'll eventually see some "Cumulative exposure over X years limit. IE over 5 years no more than 6 months total exposure at 4x ULN (no more than 3 months in a row without a break), 12 months at 3x (no more than 6 months in a row), 18 months at 2x (no more than 9 months), 36 at 1.5x (no more than 18 months), continuous use below 1.3x.

These are (mostly) arbitrary exposure limits (except below 1.3x indefinite), but I think a useful way to think about running high doses until we get more info on long term use at supraphysiological IGF levels.

HGH became mainstream in the 90's for pros. Shouldn't we be seeing a lot of negative effects on some of these guys now after 30 years? I'd say Cutler def got something going on but he's always had a big head.