MESO-Rx Exclusive What are your personal experiences with insulin?

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

which allows us to grow with less steroids

I am really interested in this as i have had other bodybuilders say that it could be a kind of harm reduction as it allows them to use less steroids. But does anyone actually do it like that? I always get the impression that they just use the same amount of gear and add slin for even more gains

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

for me insulin is adding too much risk (of type ii diabetes)

Yeah, I keep looking for evidence that bodybuilders using insulin causes type-ii diabetes, and I have yet to find it, although it is a popular thing to say on Internet forums.

The data set on non-diabetic exogenous insulin users is probably pretty small but same, haven’t seen it. Know guys who’s markers get less than ideal but never diabetes…with factors like the food intake, AAS, GH, etc i doubt there’s much to conclude…

In bodybuilding communities there is debate over whether exogenous insulin can cause diabetes, or if it actually protects against it. While we don't know for sure, my endocrinologist colleague says the latter is more likely. From a draft of our paper (including a quote from one of my research participants who I have given the pseudonym 'Chad'):

Some bodybuilders suggest that recreational insulin use puts bodybuilders at risk of developing diabetes; however, this is unlikely. Other bodybuilders suggest that their use of insulin reduces the risk of diabetes as it lessens the impact of bodybuilding diets. One participant summarised this theory as follows:

The logic is based on the idea that insulin release is regulated via feedback inhibition,[25, 26] and that, for a bodybuilder who is consuming an extraordinary caloric load, using exogenous insulin would thus lessen the burden on the pancreatic ß-cells, leaving them more capable of controlling blood glucose in the face of the poor insulin sensitivity that characterises Type 2 diabetes[27] (i.e., at some point after exogenous insulin use when it is no longer affecting blood glucose) [Chad via email].

The ORIGIN trial looked at insulin use among people with impaired glucose tolerance and cardiovascular risk and showed that there was a 20% reduction in the risk of diabetes in those treated with insulin (30% vs 35%), albeit at the cost of increased rates of hypoglycemia and weight gain.[28] Thus, there are grounds for bodybuilders to believe that they may be reducing their risk of developing diabetes by using insulin. However, as there has been no research conducted on the impact of exogenous insulin in younger people with normal glucose metabolism this is speculation. Nevertheless, the ORIGIN finding supports further research into the effect of insulin regimens on endocrine pancreatic function.

References cited:
25. Argoud GM, Schade DS, Eaton RP. Insulin suppresses its own secretion in vivo. Diabetes 1987;36(8):959-62. doi: 10.2337/diab.36.8.959 [published Online First: 1987/08/01]

26. Liljenquist JE, Horwitz DL, Jennings AS, et al. Inhibition of insulin secretion by exogenous insulin in normal man as demonstrated by C-peptide assay. Diabetes 1978;27(5):563-70. doi: 10.2337/diab.27.5.563 [published Online First: 1978/05/01]

27. Kahn SE, Hull RL, Utzschneider KM. Mechanisms linking obesity to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. Nature 2006;444(7121):840-6.

28. Investigators TOT. Basal Insulin and Cardiovascular and Other Outcomes in Dysglycemia. The New England Journal of Medicine 2012;367(4):319-28.

Hope that helps in some way

 

[Dr JIM]

Vanadyl Sulfate, Biotin, bitter melon instead of metformin? LOL. You cannot be serious. Those 3 things do exactly squat. Metformin is possibly one of the most studied drugs known to man, and works extremely well for preventing/reversing hyperglycemia caused by GH.

While Metformin has been extensively studied and is considered first line therapy for those w type II DM, the same is not true as a means of mitigating supplemental GH related hyperglycemia. Based upon existing evidence and current medical therapeutics, the latter is best accomplished by limiting GH dosage and dietary modification especially in amateur BB.

 

[Type-IIx]

While Metformin has been extensively studied and is considered first line therapy for those w type II DM, the same is not true as a means of mitigating supplemental GH related hyperglycemia. Based upon existing evidence and current medical therapeutics, the latter is best accomplished by limiting GH dosage and dietary modification especially in amateur BB.

Highlighted the problem with your statement. Are you basing your claim that Met insufficiently reduces rhGH-induced hyperglycemia on all the data that exists on supraphysiological rhGH use with Met? Because there's a decent quasi-article that runs contrary to your view here: hGH + Metformin: A Good Thing (Metformin does not lower, but rather increases IGF-1)

 

[Dr JIM]

Highlighted the problem with your statement. Are you basing your claim that Met insufficiently reduces rhGH-induced hyperglycemia on all the data that exists on supraphysiological rhGH use with Met? Because there's a decent quasi-article that runs contrary to your view here: hGH + Metformin: A Good Thing (Metformin does not lower, but rather increases IGF-1

Rather than complicate matters, and increase risk, the addition of second drug such as metformin to minimize the adverse effects (hyperglycemia) of the first as in HGH, is precisely why many PED users end up chasing their proverbial tail.

And in this case the complications associated with multi drug “enhancement” exceed the benefit and are best circumvented thru dietary modification and by lowering the HGH dose, especially in AMATEUR users.

 

[Type-IIx]

@Dr JIM Well that's quite the heavy-handed judgment of 99% of this user-base that you hold clear contempt for. It must feel omnipotent to be able to make the tradeoff determinations (risk/benefit) for each and every user from where you sit.

 

[Dr JIM]

@Dr JIM Well that's quite the heavy-handed judgment of 99% of this user-base that you hold clear contempt for. It must feel omnipotent to be able to make the tradeoff determinations (risk/benefit) for each and every user from where you sit.

No question the difference between what you and I are prompting is a matter of risk vs benefit yet forum members deserve full disclosure whenever possible.

 

[EatClen/TrenHard]

Is it best to keep blood glucose as low as possible, say 60-70 so that the body is forced to use fat as energy? I thought the whole goal was to use as much insulin as possible to balance on the point of hypoglycemia to reduce fat. I'm such a noob though.

 

[EatClen/TrenHard]

Is it best to keep blood glucose as low as possible, say 60-70 so that the body is forced to use fat as energy? I thought the whole goal was to use as much insulin as possible to balance on the point of hypoglycemia to reduce fat. I'm such a noob though.

@MairUnderwood(Researcher) thoughts?

 

[Dr JIM]

@MairUnderwood(Researcher) thoughts?

Now you know why I highlighted amateurs
in my early post.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

@MairUnderwood(Researcher) thoughts?

As a social scientist I won't offer an opinion on this until I consult with my endocrinologist colleague as I am not qualified to, and it would be irresponsible of me. I will be sure to discuss this issue with him and report back on Meso. I will write a paper evaluating all of the information I have collected including Dr Jim's assertions

 

[Jaxino]

IMO if you’re on gear and really working you should be taking met, almost full stop, and not a debate if using GH/slin. Beginning to want to argue for a starter dose of telmisartan as well.

Metformin gives me such a bad acid reflux and makes me weaker too....
I used it for 2y and imho did more hurt than good....

 

[MysqlMan]

Vigorous Steve thinks so:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA2HfHm3VCQ&t=428s


He's a pretty big believer in using bio-identicle hormones - the hormones your body produces - thinking the foreign hormones are more harmful. But, as with anything on YouTube, they've got a reputation to protect so take with a grain of salt what he personally claims to be taking and the doses.

LOL! Really Mom, that's all I'm taking!
(2 iu HGH, 250mg test, and 10 Lantus)

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

LOL! Really Mom, that's all I'm taking!
(2 iu HGH, 250mg test, and 10 Lantus)

you don't buy it?

 

[Jackedjack]

Calling out all insulin experienced brothers.

So ive been using HGH for 5+ years. 5-10iu's , with some break period, without insulin. Ive used insulin up to 80ius per day in past without hgh , great way to get big strong fatfuck.

Im now going into 3 month growing phase. Plan is to use HGH along with my anabolic stack (testosterone + proviron) , and add minimum insulin possible just to make HGH more effective, not as a anabolic driver per se.

Knowing that insulin up-regulates total and intracellular hepatic GH receptors in a concentration-dependent manner. It increases surface GHRs in a biphasic manner, with a peak response at 10 nmol/L .

So ive got to the idea using humilin-r 5-8iu together with 8-10iu HGH single dose per day.

So using insulin just as a supplemental "boost" for maximum IGF1 output from HGH. But not doing more than needed.

How many of youve used MINIMAL insulin dosages, and how did it feel in terms of HGH effectivness?

Thanks.

 

[Jaxino]

Calling out all insulin experienced brothers.

So ive been using HGH for 5+ years. 5-10iu's , with some break period, without insulin. Ive used insulin up to 80ius per day in past without hgh , great way to get big strong fatfuck.

Im now going into 3 month growing phase. Plan is to use HGH along with my anabolic stack (testosterone + proviron) , and add minimum insulin possible just to make HGH more effective, not as a anabolic driver per se.

Knowing that insulin up-regulates total and intracellular hepatic GH receptors in a concentration-dependent manner. It increases surface GHRs in a biphasic manner, with a peak response at 10 nmol/L .

So ive got to the idea using humilin-r 5-8iu together with 8-10iu HGH single dose per day.

So using insulin just as a supplemental "boost" for maximum IGF1 output from HGH. But not doing more than needed.

How many of youve used MINIMAL insulin dosages, and how did it feel in terms of HGH effectivness?

Thanks.

That’s what I do — and it works perfectly for me and for three of my friends whom I coach.

I typically cover about 60% of their carbohydrate intake with insulin, and those doses are usually administered pre-workout, post-workout, and again post-post-workout if they’re consuming a particularly high amount of carbs.

For example, I have a friend with an incredibly fast metabolism — he eats around 1,000 grams of carbohydrates on training days and roughly 300 on rest days.

Pre-workout: 150 g carbs with 20 IU Novolog
Intra-workout: 50 g carbs
Post-workout: 200 g carbs with 20 IU Novolog
Post-post-workout: 200 g carbs with 20 IU Novolog

The remaining carbohydrates are distributed throughout the rest of the day.

As for HGH, I use it pre-workout or before cardio on non-training days, mainly because I want to counteract its insulin-resistance effect for a few hours. With chronic HGH use, insulin resistance is inevitable, but I prefer these timings since my glucose readings are more stable than when I used to take it before bed (as every “internet guru” recommends — though in reality, timing isn’t all that crucial).

Over the course of three years, they’ve made tremendous progress, and none of them has ever shown HbA1c, fasting insulin, fasting glucose, or triglyceride levels outside the normal range.

The key is simply to eat enough to sustain and fuel performance improvements.