MESO-Rx Exclusive What are your personal experiences with insulin?

[Driada Medical]

Long term usage of any sort of exogenous insulin definitely isn’t healthy, especially if we are talking about moderate to high dosages of Lantus, aka insulin glargine.

It has to do with the fact that this particular type of insulin has the ability to bind to IGF1 receptors which definitely is a positive perk when we are talking about about putting on additional muscle mass:

Insulin glargine is more potent in activating the human IGF-I receptor than human insulin and insulin detemir | Request PDF

Request PDF | Insulin glargine is more potent in activating the human IGF-I receptor than human insulin and insulin detemir | To investigate whether human insulin (HI) and insulin analogues differ in their ability to activate the human IGF-I receptor (IGF-IR), the human... | Find, read and cite...

www.researchgate.net

This is not a drug for everybody considering that it does hinder our ability to oxidize fat during the day(people who are prone to gain body fat should not use it) but all I want to say that it might be useful for some people who are struggling to gain weight in the off-season.

It also does make your gastric empting go on faster since it helps to hold your blood sugar at bay. Once again it makes it a useful tool while you are pushing the calories up.

 

[Type-IIx]

Long term usage of any sort of exogenous insulin definitely isn’t healthy, especially if we are talking about moderate to high dosages of Lantus, aka insulin glargine.

It has to do with the fact that this particular type of insulin has the ability to bind to IGF1 receptors which definitely is a positive perk when we are talking about about putting on additional muscle mass:

Insulin glargine is more potent in activating the human IGF-I receptor than human insulin and insulin detemir | Request PDF

Request PDF | Insulin glargine is more potent in activating the human IGF-I receptor than human insulin and insulin detemir | To investigate whether human insulin (HI) and insulin analogues differ in their ability to activate the human IGF-I receptor (IGF-IR), the human... | Find, read and cite...

www.researchgate.net

This is not a drug for everybody considering that it does hinder our ability to oxidize fat during the day(people who are prone to gain body fat should not use it) but all I want to say that it might be useful for some people who are struggling to gain weight in the off-season.

It also does make your gastric empting go on faster since it helps to hold your blood sugar at bay. Once again it makes it a useful tool while you are pushing the calories up.

That's a good study. The reason exogenous insulin accelerates gastric emptying is because it is devoid of amylin & throws off the ratio of insulin:amylin in blood circulation. Consider the use of a GLP-1 agonist.

 

[Driada Medical]

That's a good study. The reason exogenous insulin accelerates gastric emptying is because it is devoid of amylin & throws off the ratio of insulin:amylin in blood circulation. Consider the use of a GLP-1 agonist.

GLP1 agonists are generally a good idea when appetite control is a priority, however long insulin is a drug which is used in a quite opposite scenario.

If you every try anything like liraglutide/dulaglutide you will find out that you pretty much loose any enthusiasm towards food.

Maybe some people can benefit from it while on a strict diet but that stuff is generally not for athletes.

We also have to remember that everything that hinders the ability of mitochondria to utilize glucose will eventually decrease performance and all GLP1 agonists do it(even though not to me same extent as metformin, but still people do get lactic acidosis from them, there are many case reports out there).

To summarize we just have a drug which decreases our ability to train at high aerobic capacity and it also compromises our appetite,- pretty much the opposite of what bodybuilding is all about.

There drugs have they are own applications but it’s mostly suitable for general population, aka people trying to lose some body fat.

 

[Type-IIx]

GLP1 agonists are generally a good idea when appetite control is a priority, however long insulin is a drug which is used in a quite opposite scenario.

If you every try anything like liraglutide/dulaglutide you will find out that you pretty much loose any enthusiasm towards food.

Naturally, I mean combined use of a GLP-1 agonist like low dose short-acting exenatide and lixisenatide with exogenous insulin for delaying gastic emptying when the goal is growth.

Maybe some people can benefit from it while on a strict diet but that stuff is generally not for athletes.

We also have to remember that everything that hinders the ability of mitochondria to utilize glucose will eventually decrease performance and all GLP1 agonists do it(even though not to me same extent as metformin, but still people do get lactic acidosis from them, there are many case reports out there).

To summarize we just have a drug which decreases our ability to train at high aerobic capacity and it also compromises our appetite,- pretty much the opposite of what bodybuilding is all about.

There drugs have they are own applications but it’s mostly suitable for general population, aka people trying to lose some body fat.

I completely disagree that GLP-1 agonists are incongruent with bodybuilding goals. They are fantastic agents for ameliorating rhGH-induced hyperglycemia, are excellent for cutting, and I'd be interested to see the data that GLP-1 agonists hinder mitochondrial function, or decrease performance. The popularity of GLP-1 agonists among the membership of this site would strongly disagree with you as well.

Note that your cited study, while interesting, gives a very incomplete view of the distinctions in net protein anabolism (or muscle accrual) between different rhI preparations. While it does show that short-acting formulations tend towards greater activation of IR-A & IR-B (a tendency towards an upper-left direction of their curves on the axes therein), and comparable IGF-IR activation between all tested formulations with significantly greater IGF-IR activation for Lantus, its noteworthy finding (i.e., the title) pertains to differences in IGF-IR activation with insulin glargine (e.g., Lantus) vs. insulin detemir (e.g., Levemir) [both relatively long-acting rhI formulations].

Importantly, IGF-IR activation is not the sole mechanism (or even the most important) by which insulin increases protein anabolism. Moreover, we cannot from this study ascertain whether the differences in IGF-IR activity are even due to their pharmacokinetics (peak/onset/duration of activity; where Levemir & Lantus are relatively homologous), or, rather due to other structural differences between the compounds.

What would be necessary to say anything meaningful here is a measure of increases in skeletal muscle accrual (or just increased muscle CSA) & body composition (changes in fat and muscle distribution) between something like insulin lispro (e.g., Humalog) vs. insulin glargine (e.g., Lantus) in man. Nothing of the sort exists. Given the multiple mechanisms by which insulin increases protein anabolism (e.g., MPS increase as measured by fractional synthetic rate; increased AA transport, etc.), this is just a very thin view of the actions of different insulin preparations.

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks heaps.
Yes please do share your results and your friend's reasoning for long acting and doses. I would be really interested.
Also, did you have any experiences of hypo?

Experience/s often fail to provide reproducible data (eg I must have been hypo bc; sweating, jittery, faintness, tachy, nervous, indigestion, weakness etc, etc ....) since some users believe features of hyper/hypoglycemia can be distinguished in the absence of glucose monitoring.

Nothing can be further from the truth as most users are consuming PEDS and a variety of other substances with undefined pharmacokinetics and efficacy that can significantly impact an individual's psyche and/or physiology.

 

[D Rogers]

My thoughts on insulin: high risk, low/medium reward relative to just AA’s + growth.

Imo, totally not worth fucking with unless you’re a pro. I also felt shitty whenever I took it (anecdotal, confounded by polypharmacy as per dr Jim above)

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Experience/s often fail to provide reproducible data (eg I must have been hypo bc; sweating, jittery, faintness, tachy, nervous, indigestion, weakness etc, etc ....) since some users believe features of hyper/hypoglycemia can be distinguished in the absence of glucose monitoring.

Nothing can be further from the truth as most users are consuming PEDS and a variety of other substances with undefined pharmacokinetics and efficacy that can significantly impact an individual's psyche and/or physiology.

The purpose of qualitative research is not reproducibility, but rather exploration and understanding of the insider perspective. Some basic descriptions of the differences between research methodologies here: Qualitative vs. quantitative research
After qualitative findings are made they can serve as a foundation for quantitative research. Academia knows basically nothing about bodybuilder's use of insulin so it would IMHO be premature to start testing hypotheses as we need to scope the issues and understand the diversity of experiences and understandings first.
When it comes to harm reduction arguably the most important thing we can do is collect understandings of insulin and start to correct them through expert evaluation of their logic. e.g. I repeatedly come across statements that insulin is 'the most anabolic hormone' which I believe would attract many to using it, but my endocrinologist colleague suggests this is absolutely incorrect.
The use of insulin 'by feel' as many use it is interesting data and speaks to the dangers of use as recurrent hypoglycemia in people with type 1 diabetes has been shown to lead to impaired awareness of hypoglycemia and increased risk of severe hypoglycemia.
We can't reduce the risks of insulin use for enhancement if we don't first understand how it is being used and what practices are increasing risk in the first place, and then suggest ways it can be used more safely. Otherwise we just get medicos publishing papers saying 'it's so dangerous, don't do it' which has done fuck all to stop use and reduce harm thus far

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

My thoughts on insulin: high risk, low/medium reward relative to just AA’s + growth.

Imo, totally not worth fucking with unless you’re a pro. I also felt shitty whenever I took it (anecdotal, confounded by polypharmacy as per dr Jim above)

Yes polypharmacy does confound things but if all you change is to add insulin you know what is causing the effects you are experiencing. many bodybuilders are quite systematic and control other variables so they can isolate the effects of a change in protocol.
And anecdotes it all we have right now, but if I collect enough of them then we have the start of an actual understanding of insulin use for enhancement (it's practice and experience) so thanks for sharing yours. Otherwise we just have a bunch of medicos doing scaremongering which doesn't help anyone

 

[Driada Medical]

Naturally, I mean combined use of a GLP-1 agonist like low dose short-acting exenatide and lixisenatide with exogenous insulin for delaying gastic emptying when the goal is growth.

I completely disagree that GLP-1 agonists are incongruent with bodybuilding goals. They are fantastic agents for ameliorating rhGH-induced hyperglycemia, are excellent for cutting, and I'd be interested to see the data that GLP-1 agonists hinder mitochondrial function, or decrease performance. The popularity of GLP-1 agonists among the membership of this site would strongly disagree with you as well.

Note that your cited study, while interesting, gives a very incomplete view of the distinctions in net protein anabolism (or muscle accrual) between different rhI preparations. While it does show that short-acting formulations tend towards greater activation of IR-A & IR-B (a tendency towards an upper-left direction of their curves on the axes therein), and comparable IGF-IR activation between all tested formulations with significantly greater IGF-IR activation for Lantus, its noteworthy finding (i.e., the title) pertains to differences in IGF-IR activation with insulin glargine (e.g., Lantus) vs. insulin detemir (e.g., Levemir) [both relatively long-acting rhI formulations].

Importantly, IGF-IR activation is not the sole mechanism (or even the most important) by which insulin increases protein anabolism. Moreover, we cannot from this study ascertain whether the differences in IGF-IR activity are even due to their pharmacokinetics (peak/onset/duration of activity; where Levemir & Lantus are relatively homologous), or, rather due to other structural differences between the compounds.

What would be necessary to say anything meaningful here is a measure of increases in skeletal muscle accrual (or just increased muscle CSA) & body composition (changes in fat and muscle distribution) between something like insulin lispro (e.g., Humalog) vs. insulin glargine (e.g., Lantus) in man. Nothing of the sort exists. Given the multiple mechanisms by which insulin increases protein anabolism (e.g., MPS increase as measured by fractional synthetic rate; increased AA transport, etc.), this is just a very thin view of the actions of different insulin preparations.

There are many cases where people report that their performance decreases while they were using GLP agonists or metformin (metformin even being poisonous to mitochondria and blocking its ability to burn glucose), or both of them together.

If that wasn’t the case for today there wouldn’t been so many investigations amongst actual scientists about this topic:

Could Trulicity cause Lactic acidosis? - eHealthMe

A phase IV clinical study of FDA data: Lactic acidosis is found among people who take Trulicity, especially for people who are female, 60+ old, have been taking the drug for < 1 month

www.ehealthme.com

Dulaglutide for example is being researched right now. Of course you might point out that there are mostly old people in the study, who are not very durable, but remember that we bodybuilders are supposed to expose ourselves to high volume training on which case we will need all our mitochondrial potential.

If you are worried about high blood glucose while using hGH, I would have looked into actual GDA solutions like biotin, vanadyl sulfate or bitter melon for example.

It’s a mistake to view insulin as an instrument to counter hyperglycemia we should use it as an additional anabolic pathway which allows us to grow with less steroids and utilize more macronutrients in building new tissue.

 

[Type-IIx]

There are many cases where people report that their performance decreases while they were using GLP agonists or metformin (metformin even being poisonous to mitochondria and blocking its ability to burn glucose), or both of them together.

If that wasn’t the case for today there wouldn’t been so many investigations amongst actual scientists about this topic:

Could Trulicity cause Lactic acidosis? - eHealthMe

A phase IV clinical study of FDA data: Lactic acidosis is found among people who take Trulicity, especially for people who are female, 60+ old, have been taking the drug for < 1 month

www.ehealthme.com

Dulaglutide for example is being researched right now. Of course you might point out that there are mostly old people in the study, who are not very durable, but remember that we bodybuilders are supposed to expose ourselves to high volume training on which case we will need all our mitochondrial potential.

If you are worried about high blood glucose while using hGH, I would have looked into actual GDA solutions like biotin, vanadyl sulfate or bitter melon for example.

It’s a mistake to view insulin as an instrument to counter hyperglycemia we should use it as an additional anabolic pathway which allows us to grow with less steroids and utilize more macronutrients in building new tissue.

GDA? Guideline Daily Amounts? Vitamin B? Vanadyl sulfate, shown in some animal studies to reduce hyperglycemia? Bitter Melon? These are completely unproven supplements. We know GLP-1 agonists actually work in humans brother.

Interesting re: dulaglutide but really one of many non-sequiturs in this post. Lactic acidosis? Who cares bro? We're trained individuals not sedentary elderly people. We have lactate buffering capacity.

Why do you keep inserting Metformin into the conversation? I do not follow. OK, Metformin in old animals has deleterious effects on mitchondrial function and respiration. But, it has positive effects in youth. Anyhow, irrelevant to the topic.

Getting back to the topic at hand: you clearly have a penchant for posting irrelevant studies. I mean, studies are cool, but it'd be a far more valuable contribution to post at least tangentially related studies to the matter of insulin use.

 

[malfeasance]

My thoughts on insulin: high risk, low/medium reward relative to just AA’s + growth.

Imo, totally not worth fucking with unless you’re a pro. I also felt shitty whenever I took it (anecdotal, confounded by polypharmacy as per dr Jim above)

Really? Wow. Amazing how different things can be for different persons. Preworkout insulin with some carbs and I feel great during the workout, and the muscles being worked swell like crazy. AAS, hgh, and insulin for the win!

And I find the risk very low so long as I have fast carbs on hand as a just in case (and I haven't needed the just-in-case carbs since, oh, 2015 or so).

But I don't take a lot and don't run it for a long time, and almost never run it more than once or twice daily, so . . .

 

[D Rogers]

Yeah I don’t know why I feel so crappy on it. I monitor blood sugar really carefully but I still just feel off the whole time. However the recovery time is incredible, and the pumps are def insane.

My risk reward statement is personal, I’m concerned about type ii diabetes and plan to be on for the next decade or so, and hoping to come out on the other side as healthy as possible. So for me insulin is adding too much risk (of type ii diabetes) to my goals relative to the reward. But that’s just my case. My physique is where it needs to be and I just have to maintain. To each his own and I make no statements of fact, just opinion

 

[malfeasance]

Yeah, I keep looking for evidence that bodybuilders using insulin causes type-ii diabetes, and I have yet to find it, although it is a popular thing to say on Internet forums.

In any event, the beginning stages of diabetes can easily be reversed by calorie restriction - a tough thing for fatties becoming diabetic (a change in life long habits), but not so tough for a bodybuilder, because they do it all the time (it's called a cut, LOL!).

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Yeah, I keep looking for evidence that bodybuilders using insulin causes type-ii diabetes, and I have yet to find it, although it is a popular thing to say on Internet forums.

In any event, the beginning stages of diabetes can easily be reversed by calorie restriction - a tough thing for fatties becoming diabetic (a change in life long habits), but not so tough for a bodybuilder, because they do it all the time (it's called a cut, LOL!).

The data set on non-diabetic exogenous insulin users is probably pretty small but same, haven’t seen it. Know guys who’s markers get less than ideal but never diabetes…with factors like the food intake, AAS, GH, etc i doubt there’s much to conclude…

 

[lilhawk]

There are many cases where people report that their performance decreases while they were using GLP agonists or metformin (metformin even being poisonous to mitochondria and blocking its ability to burn glucose), or both of them together.

If that wasn’t the case for today there wouldn’t been so many investigations amongst actual scientists about this topic:

Could Trulicity cause Lactic acidosis? - eHealthMe

A phase IV clinical study of FDA data: Lactic acidosis is found among people who take Trulicity, especially for people who are female, 60+ old, have been taking the drug for < 1 month

www.ehealthme.com

Dulaglutide for example is being researched right now. Of course you might point out that there are mostly old people in the study, who are not very durable, but remember that we bodybuilders are supposed to expose ourselves to high volume training on which case we will need all our mitochondrial potential.

If you are worried about high blood glucose while using hGH, I would have looked into actual GDA solutions like biotin, vanadyl sulfate or bitter melon for example.

It’s a mistake to view insulin as an instrument to counter hyperglycemia we should use it as an additional anabolic pathway which allows us to grow with less steroids and utilize more macronutrients in building new tissue.

Vanadyl Sulfate, Biotin, bitter melon instead of metformin? LOL. You cannot be serious. Those 3 things do exactly squat. Metformin is possibly one of the most studied drugs known to man, and works extremely well for preventing/reversing hyperglycemia caused by GH.

 

[Type-IIx]

The data set on non-diabetic exogenous insulin users is probably pretty small but same, haven’t seen it. Know guys who’s markers get less than ideal but never diabetes…with factors like the food intake, AAS, GH, etc i doubt there’s much to conclude…

@malfeasance also - true, it takes a long while to progress to diabetes given the progressive nature of the disease and the fact that bodybuilders do a lot to stave off the process (including, importantly, not using high dose slin year round, but that's becoming more common). But what we do see is a small but growing sample of guys dying from cardiovascular problems that I strongly believe will eventually be demonstrated to be rooted in insulin+androgen use.

e.g. I repeatedly come across statements that insulin is 'the most anabolic hormone' which I believe would attract many to using it, but my endocrinologist colleague suggests this is absolutely incorrect.

Oof, if your colleague believes insulin is not the most anabolic hormone (importantly: its use in bodybuilding is in conjunction with rhGH) then man, he is not attuned to the reality. This is analogous to the medical community's views of androgens pre-Bhasin. Now insulin largely increases glycogen stores rather than actually increasing muscle accretion - perhaps that's where the disconnect lies - but rhI is clearly the most potent protein anabolic hormone, and this is most pronounced when combined with rhGH. Here's a study you should refer him to:

Crown, A. (2000). Characterisation of the IGF system in a primary adult human skeletal muscle cell model, and comparison of the effects of insulin and IGF-I on protein metabolism. Journal of Endocrinology, 167(3), 403–415. doi:10.1677/joe.0.1670403

It's funny, I've seen data demonstrating an apparent interference effect with rhGH and insulin. This does not square with reality & actual bodybuilding practices.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Vanadyl Sulfate, Biotin, bitter melon instead of metformin? LOL. You cannot be serious. Those 3 things do exactly squat. Metformin is possibly one of the most studied drugs known to man, and works extremely well for preventing/reversing hyperglycemia caused by GH.

IMO if you’re on gear and really working you should be taking met, almost full stop, and not a debate if using GH/slin. Beginning to want to argue for a starter dose of telmisartan as well.

 

[Megadick3000]

IMO if you’re on gear and really working you should be taking met, almost full stop, and not a debate if using GH/slin. Beginning to want to argue for a starter dose of telmisartan as well.

The only thing i dislike about metformin is that it always makes my muscles look noticeably flatter. Whilst its health benefits are great and its dirt cheap, in my experiences it actually diminishes, temporarily, aesthetics.

 

[Zarioh]

@Type-IIx @Mac11wildcat A lot of people use fast insulin + hgh for increased igf-1, is this true that it has these benefits? And will long acting insulin still make this process happen, if so, why do we even use fast slin`?

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx @Mac11wildcat A lot of people use fast insulin + hgh for increased igf-1, is this true that it has these benefits? And will long acting insulin still make this process happen, if so, why do we even use fast slin`?

fast-/rapid- acting insulin's primary benefit is that it doesn't chronically suppress fat oxidation. There may be a tendency for rapid-acting insulin to activate IR-B more potently.