MESO-Rx Exclusive What are your personal experiences with insulin?

[Rido]

I have heard this - is it true that insulin could be used a a kind of harm reduction strategy i.e. add insulin so can get more bang for buck and therefore can use less AAS for the same gains thus reducing long-term harm (but increasing possibility of short-term harm from insulin but as they see this as easily manageable it is not seen as an increase in harm)?

I think victor black follows this belief system

ex.

8 week cycle
1000mg of test
1000mg of mast

1mg of arimidex a weak to combat e2

vs
20-24 week cycle
400mg of test(assuming you do not need an AI
400 mast
8units of hgh
10 units of lantus a day.
No AI needed

longer run but reducing longer term harm.

He didnt say this above cycle, just using it as an example

 

[UnProblemaComun]

If you're careful enough and know what you're doing, you can put on some quality lbm's by adding hgh+insulin to just your trt.
I'm done with high doses of AAS.
Yes insulin has its own risks. But there's too many side effects acociated with aas abuse, specially if you b&c.

A little test, some deca , 3-4iu hgh , 10-15iu humulin r -3-4 times per week and thats all i need to grow

 

[UnProblemaComun]

I have heard this - is it true that insulin could be used a a kind of harm reduction strategy i.e. add insulin so can get more bang for buck and therefore can use less AAS for the same gains thus reducing long-term harm (but increasing possibility of short-term harm from insulin but as they see this as easily manageable it is not seen as an increase in harm)?

I guess it's hgh (or maybe both insulin and hgh) that allows you to use less AAS to get same result as high dose of aas without hgh ?
150mg test + 5iu pharma hgh vs 350mg test no hgh i get better results with the former and a lot less side . I look better too.

 

[Type-IIx]

what about the ORIGIN trial? from a section of draft paper written by Richard Holt:
The ORIGIN trial looked at insulin use among people with impaired glucose tolerance and cardiovascular risk and showed that there was a 20% reduction in the risk of diabetes in those treated with insulin (30% vs 35%), albeit at the cost of increased rates of hypoglycemia and weight gain.[28] Thus, there are grounds for bodybuilders to believe that they may be reducing their risk of developing diabetes by using insulin. However, as there has been no research conducted on the impact of exogenous insulin in younger people with normal glucose metabolism this is speculation. Nevertheless, the ORIGIN finding supports further research into the effect of insulin regimens on endocrine pancreatic function.
28. Investigators TOT. Basal Insulin and Cardiovascular and Other Outcomes in Dysglycemia. The New England Journal of Medicine 2012;367(4):319-28.

So, this study shows that so-called "basal insulin" (insulin glargine, a long-acting recombinant insulin formulation) has a neutral (neither good nor bad) effect on cardiovascular outcomes in at-risk hyperglycemic subjects. This sort of insulin formulation is not used often by bodybuilders who prefer more short-acting formulations because of increased anabolism (e.g., Humalog [insulin lispro]).

I think the ORIGIN data taken together with what I have seen on insulin generally suggests that the cardiovascular harms that arise from rapid-/short- acting insulin formulations (as opposed to insulin glargine) are likely due to hypoglycemia (that is often undetected/asymptomatic and insufficiently ameliorated in practice) or perhaps due to greater and more acute phosphorylation of IR by rapid-/short- acting insulin.

 

[Type-IIx]

Another consideration: suppression of fat oxidation during the active life of the insulin.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Vigorous Steve thinks so:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA2HfHm3VCQ&t=428s


He's a pretty big believer in using bio-identicle hormones - the hormones your body produces - thinking the foreign hormones are more harmful. But, as with anything on YouTube, they've got a reputation to protect so take with a grain of salt what he personally claims to be taking and the doses.

Thanks heaps. I haven't seen this one so will add it to my data. Much appreciated

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Except for everyone with diabetes

of course! ‍ That's how it all started apparently. With Tim Belknap the diabetic bodybuilder who started playing with his insulin dose

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

of course! ‍ That's how it all started apparently. With Tim Belknap the diabetic bodybuilder who started playing with his insulin dose

i don't know why my facepalm emoji turned into a female symbol. i suppose it was a female face palming

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I agree. There's that. There's also the attempt to control the variables in everyone's n=1 self-experimentation.

The newbie who starts weight training and within a year is already using AAS, hgh, insulin, etc. can make crazy gains.

However, he never really learns how to train; he never really learns how to use AAS; he never really learns how to use hGH; etc; etc.

Yet he thinks he does because he's making crazy gains. But what can he attribute to training? To AAS? To hGH? He can never be sure. And his unsupported/false certainty ends up spreading a lot of misinformation.

Better approach is to methodically introduce different variables. First, spend a couple years learn how to train, what works, what doesn't. Then, add a AAS, testosterone for example; try different ones; try combinations; find out what works, what doesn't. After a couple more years, maybe consider other variables.

In the end, it's still n=1 but a more informed n=1

Thanks Millard. I am writing about this exact thing in my harm reduction paper in which I am discussing how the turn to science has informed more systematic IPED use just like this

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

This (the ORIGIN Trial), I have not read yet, but will right away. I've never seen the risk reduction quantified before, so this is GREAT data. I've always viewed (and still do really) insulin as very effective at mitigating the hyperglycemia/IR from rhGH, but believe its use falls at the end of the continuum with respect to ameliorating this harm (i.e., berberine > Metformin > GLP-1 agonists > insulin).

I am glad it is useful. i think this paper should end up being pretty helpful to those who use insulin for anabolism.
Thanks for your theorising too. will run it past Richard and see what he thinks

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Another consideration: suppression of fat oxidation during the active life of the insulin.

again, thanks for your thoughts. this is great data that will give us a much fuller picture of bodybuilder 'folk pharmacology' for Richard to evaluate. Can't wait to come back to you with his thoughts but in reality it is going to be months before I can finish the paper I am currently writing, draft a revised insulin paper and get Richard's contribution.

 

[BigNJ]

Don't forget about insulinase.
I can tell you many casual bodybuilders don't know much about Insulin. Most of them follow bro science.

Insulin is a massive topic. If you would like to contact me email me at: BigNj@pm.me

I can provide you with a lot of information and science that the average bodybuilder know nothing about.

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks for the feedback but I think you missed the point of the article which wasn't to summarise the existing science, but to summarise bodybuilder perspectives, and particularly the issues of debate, and to inspire people to add their two cents so I have good data to analyse before I publish the full paper later. Rest assured that the full paper will contain the science - that's what Richard Holt will contribute. I contribute the 'broscience' for him to evaluate. Thanks for the link. I have found Dave Palumbo spouts a lot of misinformation about insulin

Yet unless you collate the data in a meaningful manner (if that is even possible) and publish it in a peer reviewed journal, user experimentation will remain anecdotes rather than scientific EVIDENCE.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Yet unless you collate the data in a meaningful manner (if that is even possible) and publish it in a peer reviewed journal, user experimentation will remain anecdotes rather than scientific EVIDENCE.

That is exactly what I intend to do @Dr JIM . For anthropologists anecdotes are evidence - evidence of how the people understand and do things. But the bodybuilders I have talked to want me to go further with this paper and tell them who is right and who is wrong. There is a lot of misinformation out there so once I have collected as many different views as I can collect we will analyse it all.
I am collecting all the experimentation data I can get, as well as their theories about how insulin works as an anabolic agent and how best to use it for this purpose (or their 'folk pharmacology' as we anthropologists call it). I am collecting this data from forums, other social media inc closed groups and YouTube, as well as 21 interviews I have conducted with bodybuilders who use insulin, I will put it together and then my colleague (an endocrinologist with expertise on enhancement drugs) will evaluate it in order to determine how dangerous/safe their practices are likely to be, how their theories compare to the existing science, etc. We will then publish it in a peer-reviewed journal - probably the International Journal of Drug Policy as it is a good interdisciplinary journal and they are one of the few drug journals that appreciate the utility of qualitative research. Plus I have published with them many times before and I respect their processes. It is crazy that given the medical literature that emphasises the dangers or insulin use in bodybuilding that no one has actually evaluated such use before.
I would be keen to hear your thoughts and chat to you with regards another paper I am doing if you're up for it

 

[Zarioh]

Does any1 know how much Lantus will increase igf-1? Will it actually make a difference whether one will do lantus vs fast acting slin.

Also I know many people do fast slin + hgh for increase in igf-1 - is this the case and how so?

 

[Driada Medical]

I had a personal experience of using insulin, but it was back in 2012 and then there was not enough information. I used ultrashort insulin on the PCT. I started with 2 iu twice a day and gradually increased the dosage. I got to 20-25 iu twice a day. Now I think that these are too large dosages. My mistake was that I didn't follow the diet and ate too many carbohydrates. I was really able to keep my strength a little better than without it, but I gained a lot of excess fat, which then had to be thrown off during the next course of steroids.

After that, I almost didn't use insulin, but I plan to start it all over again. I have a friend who is a very knowledgeable person and he advised me to use a long version of insulin in small doses (approximately 6-8 iu).

It is also important to understand that insulin does not improve digestion, and your gastrointestinal tract may not cope with the amount of carbohydrates that you will consume. Therefore, proper dosing is necessary and the use of pancreatin is possible. At this moment, I can't advise anything, but definitely in the near future I will use HGH and insulin as recommended by my friend. I will definitely share my results.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I had a personal experience of using insulin, but it was back in 2012 and then there was not enough information. I used ultrashort insulin on the PCT. I started with 2 iu twice a day and gradually increased the dosage. I got to 20-25 iu twice a day. Now I think that these are too large dosages. My mistake was that I didn't follow the diet and ate too many carbohydrates. I was really able to keep my strength a little better than without it, but I gained a lot of excess fat, which then had to be thrown off during the next course of steroids.

After that, I almost didn't use insulin, but I plan to start it all over again. I have a friend who is a very knowledgeable person and he advised me to use a long version of insulin in small doses (approximately 6-8 iu).

It is also important to understand that insulin does not improve digestion, and your gastrointestinal tract may not cope with the amount of carbohydrates that you will consume. Therefore, proper dosing is necessary and the use of pancreatin is possible. At this moment, I can't advise anything, but definitely in the near future I will use HGH and insulin as recommended by my friend. I will definitely share my results.

Thanks heaps.
Yes please do share your results and your friend's reasoning for long acting and doses. I would be really interested.
Also, did you have any experiences of hypo?

 

[eery]

I had a personal experience of using insulin, but it was back in 2012 and then there was not enough information. I used ultrashort insulin on the PCT. I started with 2 iu twice a day and gradually increased the dosage. I got to 20-25 iu twice a day. Now I think that these are too large dosages. My mistake was that I didn't follow the diet and ate too many carbohydrates. I was really able to keep my strength a little better than without it, but I gained a lot of excess fat, which then had to be thrown off during the next course of steroids.

After that, I almost didn't use insulin, but I plan to start it all over again. I have a friend who is a very knowledgeable person and he advised me to use a long version of insulin in small doses (approximately 6-8 iu).

It is also important to understand that insulin does not improve digestion, and your gastrointestinal tract may not cope with the amount of carbohydrates that you will consume. Therefore, proper dosing is necessary and the use of pancreatin is possible. At this moment, I can't advise anything, but definitely in the near future I will use HGH and insulin as recommended by my friend. I will definitely share my results.

fit the insulin to your diet, not your diet to your insulin. Excess fat gain and any digestive issues shouldnt be an issue with that approach.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

fit the insulin to your diet, not your diet to your insulin. Excess fat gain and any digestive issues shouldnt be an issue with that approach.

Thanks for this. I hate to advise people how to use insulin as I haven't finished the research but that's exactly what most (pretty much all I think) guys have told me so seems to be the standard advice among bodybuilders

 

[Driada Medical]

Thanks heaps.
Yes please do share your results and your friend's reasoning for long acting and doses. I would be really interested.
Also, did you have any experiences of hypo?

I've had hypo many times and not just from insulin. For example, from GHRP-6. I also have hypo if I don't eat enough before intensive training or go without food for a long time. When I took insulin, I was always near a lot of food.

Regarding the long insulin - he argued that the anabolic process is constant and not peaks, which gives a generally better effect in the future and less risk of hypo. I'll ask what he thinks about the duration of the application. He said that one of the secrets of the strength of one very strong and promising russian strongman is just in the use of long insulin.