MESO-Rx Exclusive What are your personal experiences with insulin?

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

now i'm not sure if i'd do that again. i felt like a ginny pig in a science experiment. i got great results but when i do insulin i start feeling like maybe i've taken my hobby a bit too far...

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Can you please tell me more about this? why wouldn't you do it again? why did you feel like a guinea pig and that you had taken it too far?

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I heard it's always good to take 2ius of insulin with an HGH shot to peak IGF-1 levels. And taking HGH, 15 minutes, then insulin post workout is the best noobie protocol.

is it the best noobie protocol because it is safer than pre workout?

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Insulin (humalog) was the first PED i ever used in working out.

wow! you used insulin before AAS? I have never come across that before

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I would never consider using insulin on a cut or in a caloric deficit or on a ketogenic diet. This is for bulking on a carb heavy caloric surplus only. I always maintained a minimum intake of 10g carbs per iu, i never tried reducing my carb to iu ratio, but ive read of guys getting away with considerably less carbs per iu, but i dont see why you would want to use insulin with minimal carbs as it would rob you of the results and increase your risk for hypo.

some guys have described it to me like you are trying to get away with the minimal carbs because you don't want to get fat. so you're like balancing the risk of fat with the risk of hypo. does that make sense? or are they full of shit?

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

I was expecting, a couple of paragraphs in, that this article (that you refer to more than once as a "paper") was the product of discourse or input from the expert authority you refer to, Richard Hold.

no, sorry I probably wasn't as clear as I could be - the future paper to be published in an academic journal (and a version of it published here on meso too) will be written with Richard. Maybe we could make that even clearer if @Millard agrees to a quick edit

Now I'm a voracious reader, and it's just really difficult for me to view the objective of this article as nothing more than a summary of self-reports or responses to questionnaire ("perspectives" or "debatable issues") from 20 subjects.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that I am trying to do something more than summarise bodybuilder views? And it wasn't just 20 participants (although I did have my most in-depth discussions with those 20) it was also evidence from videos and forums such as this one

it doesn't present the scientific or expert rebuttals to the many misconceptions therein (hopefully these are forthcoming)

they sure are. i just wanted to capture as much of the detail of the debate as possible before I write these second papers for meso and for academic publication

consequently this article might be referenced by an average reader in support of the reader's erroneous views. For example, a guy might read the following:

"Some bodybuilders suggest that insulin is one of the safest drugs in their arsenal particularly as compared to DNP and trenbolone...
"All bodybuilders stated that hypoglycaemia was easily managed by consuming sugars..."

And be unable to discern between truth and falsehood. Bodybuilder self-reports or answers to questionnaire ("perspectives" or "debatable issues") are just going to be interpreted as authoritative by most of the readership, especially when universally held or majority views.

Just please consider editing this article appropriately when there are (presumably forthcoming) rebuttals from an expert to counter the misconceptions therein.

this is a good and valid point. this paper could be misread by some and maybe (if @Millard doesn't mind) we could make it even clearer that I am not advocating/agreeing with any of this, and that everything quoted should be considered critically and not taken as fact even if many agree with it.

Thanks so much for your obvious engagement with my research @Type-IIx , i really appreciate your critique

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Further, I think it's worth emphasizing that adding insulin use atop AAS use really is like providing an accelerant to a fire in progression towards type II diabetes as elevated triglycerides, dyslipidemia, endothelial dysfunction, atherosclerosis, hypertension, and prothrombotic activity (all well characterized effects of androgens) are all contributors. Decreased insulin sensitivity a la hyperinsulinemia/insulin toxicity occurs via mechanisms like decreased IR autophosphorylation & consequent GLUT-4 translocation.

what about the ORIGIN trial? from a section of draft paper written by Richard Holt:
The ORIGIN trial looked at insulin use among people with impaired glucose tolerance and cardiovascular risk and showed that there was a 20% reduction in the risk of diabetes in those treated with insulin (30% vs 35%), albeit at the cost of increased rates of hypoglycemia and weight gain.[28] Thus, there are grounds for bodybuilders to believe that they may be reducing their risk of developing diabetes by using insulin. However, as there has been no research conducted on the impact of exogenous insulin in younger people with normal glucose metabolism this is speculation. Nevertheless, the ORIGIN finding supports further research into the effect of insulin regimens on endocrine pancreatic function.
28. Investigators TOT. Basal Insulin and Cardiovascular and Other Outcomes in Dysglycemia. The New England Journal of Medicine 2012;367(4):319-28.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

Any comments on the interaction of DNP and Insulin?

"I'm really not going to bore you with long and complicated explanations of how both DNP and insulin work in the body, but I do need to touch on the subject. Many of the articles written about DNP refer to it’s abilities to block the actions of insulin. This is true only in a limited sense. Insulin is released by pancreatic beta cells in response to elevated ATP/ADP ratios. Briefly, when your blood sugar levels rise, your ATP/ADP levels become elevated, inhibiting ATP sensitive potassium ion channels (KATP), altering the membrane potential of the pancreatic cells and causing insulin release. The key point here is that insulin will not be released unless ATP levels within the cells increase. DNP interferes with the protein complex ATP synthase, which allows for the synthesis of ATP from ADP and Pi (inorganic phosphate). Since DNP interferes with a key step in ATP production, obviously ATP levels never elevate within any cell, including pancreatic beta cells. Hence, the feedback system through the KATP channels (at least in regards to insulin release), is disabled, and you effectively make yourself a diabetic while on DNP.
The primary action of insulin in the body is to drive glucose into muscle and liver cells (stored as glycogen) which is converted into ATP. ATP again? Since DNP reduces ATP production significantly, it again interferes with insulin by preventing a significant amount of the glucose that is pushed into cells by insulin from ever being used as energy (at least by the cell). So, what is happening to all of this energy that is being expended through the electron transport chain to turn ADP and Pi into ATP? It’s thrown off as heat, and lots of it. In fact, because the amount of heat produced is a direct correlation of how much DNP is consumed, taking too much DNP will cook you from the inside out. Let me repeat this. Taking too much DNP will fry you like an egg. It doesn’t sound like a pleasant way to die, does it? DNP is not one of those, hey a little did me good, more will do me better kind of substances. A little will do you good and more will burn your ass up.
So, now we understand the ways in which DNP interferes with some of the actions of insulin. Another action of insulin (thank you God) is that it promotes transport of amino acids from the bloodstream into muscles and other cells. Insulin also increases the rate at which amino acids are incorporated into protein. Although DNP does block the release of insulin and prevents a key component of the electron transport chain (ATP synthase, remember?), it does nothing to prevent the aforementioned extremely anabolic affect of insulin. Therefore, when you use DNP, you should be administering insulin at the same time. The exogenous insulin will still work its anabolic magic while the DNP burns off reams of body fat through the resultant metabolic increase." - Jason Mueller.

This would be really interesting to raise with Richard Holt my endo colleague. thanks for sharing

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

This was my experience. It was like doing a first cycle all over again. Loved it.

I did go hypo once, and on plenty of carbs. I never did figure out what I did wrong, but I always backed off the iu a bit from that level from then on. It was a little scary.

Now @Type-IIx has me all freaked out that I killed myself, though, dammit.

This contrasts with most of the bodybuilders who say hypo was mostly nothing to worry about and was easily managed - you scared yourself a bit hey?
can you please tell me why it felt like your first cycle again? because of the pump and the feeling of fullness? because you had got used to the AAS and this took you to another level? (sorry don't mean to be putting words in your mouth - please tell me what it felt like)

 

[hometeam]

Yes, this is a good point that I haven't mentioned in here but will in the final paper. Insulin is particularly useful when you hit a plateau. What people have told me is:
1. max out your natty gains - once you hit that plateau then use AAS
2. max out your AAS gains - once you hit that plateau then use gH and insulin
Is that correct? I get the impression that a lot of guys don't do this and want to go hard too soon

I think people mostly say this mostly for harm reduction purposes. Taking this route is healthiest because you've put the least amount of PEDs in your body. And a 160lb person needs less PEDs (if any) to grow at a good rate than a 250lb person. Like the speed of light, your body can only grow so fast or shed fat so fast.

Growing slowly has health and cosmetic benefits too: less stretch marks, more hair on your head, less injuries, less organ stress, etc. But not everybody wants to reach their peak in 10-15 years instead of 5-7, especially if they are in a competitive sport. So new people often take as much as they can tolerate.

And there are people who take insulin so they can get away with taking less anabolics, believing that is healthier for them instead.

 

[MairUnderwood(Researcher)]

And there are people who take insulin so they can get away with taking less anabolics, believing that is healthier for them instead.

I have heard this - is it true that insulin could be used a a kind of harm reduction strategy i.e. add insulin so can get more bang for buck and therefore can use less AAS for the same gains thus reducing long-term harm (but increasing possibility of short-term harm from insulin but as they see this as easily manageable it is not seen as an increase in harm)?

 

[Habib]

is it the best noobie protocol because it is safer than pre workout?

Yes but don't ask me too much more cos am noob

 

[hometeam]

I have heard this - is it true that insulin could be used a a kind of harm reduction strategy i.e. add insulin so can get more bang for buck and therefore can use less AAS for the same gains thus reducing long-term harm (but increasing possibility of short-term harm from insulin but as they see this as easily manageable it is not seen as an increase in harm)?

Vigorous Steve thinks so:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA2HfHm3VCQ&t=428s


He's a pretty big believer in using bio-identicle hormones - the hormones your body produces - thinking the foreign hormones are more harmful. But, as with anything on YouTube, they've got a reputation to protect so take with a grain of salt what he personally claims to be taking and the doses.

 

[Megadick3000]

wow! you used insulin before AAS? I have never come across that before

Except for everyone with diabetes

 

[Megadick3000]

some guys have described it to me like you are trying to get away with the minimal carbs because you don't want to get fat. so you're like balancing the risk of fat with the risk of hypo. does that make sense? or are they full of shit?

Thats the logic as ive always interpreted it.

However i think your propensity to get fat from insulin depends on your body type. As i mentioned i am a classic ectomorphic body type. Carbs, in any quantity, do not make me fat. The more carbs i eat the more full my muscles look, but i never seem to accumlate fat even with insulin use. I have friends who are endomorphic body types and even small amounts of carbs seem to make them fat. Those endomorphic guys respond really well to ketogenic diets from what ive seen. Ectomorphs are the opposite, we can eat copious protein amounts but we only grow good when we eat high carbs.

I think if you have a propensity to gain fat from carbs and want to use insulin then you will want to gun for the lowest carb to iu ratio you can get away with so as to minimize fat accumulation. However if your an ectomorph like me then more carbs + insulin = more fullness (presumably glycogen and intracellular water) and if your truly an ectomorph fat gain is practically impossible.

Seriously, i cannot get fat, ive intentionally tried to get fat and failed. I did GOMAD (one gallon of whole milk every day) for 9 months straight as part of an almost 6000kcal bulk... i ended the bulk at 5.4% BF according to the average of 3 caliper readings. At the start of the bulk my calipers measured me in at just over 9% BF. I was also using exogenous insulin during part of that bulk.

How the fuck a guy can eat way above maintenance calories and end up losing bodyfat even with insulin use is something i cannot explain but almost certainly has to be grounded in that persons genetics.

 

[hometeam]

Seriously, i cannot get fat, ive intentionally tried to get fat and failed.

Wait till you turn 35
But I know what you mean. I'm a hard gainer too.

 

[steckdose0]

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Can you please tell me more about this? why wouldn't you do it again? why did you feel like a guinea pig and that you had taken it too far?

just something about abusing such a serious drug, such as insulin, doesn't make too much sense to me especially when i'm not earning any money from the way i look or my athletic performance. if someone does immense research for a few months about insulin and how to use it i suppose it could be relatively safe. however, the user might take it too far at that point.

a couple years ago i found my chest lagging a bit in terms of size and i thought to use insulin on chest days only, but those plans fell through.

i still like anabolics and that'll never change, and i have many years left in the game until i stop. but these days i do my absolute best to take the healthiest approach to this and insulin cannot be involved. too dangerous, too many health risks, gotta watch the clock all the time etc etc. to each their own but it won't be on my menu anymore.

 

[Megadick3000]

Wait till you turn 35
But I know what you mean. I'm a hard gainer too.

Im 37 already bro!

 

[Millard]

Maybe we could make that even clearer if @Millard agrees to a quick edit

this is a good and valid point. this paper could be misread by some and maybe (if @Millard doesn't mind) we could make it even clearer that I am not advocating/agreeing with any of this, and that everything quoted should be considered critically and not taken as fact even if many agree with it.

Of course!

 

[Millard]

I think people mostly say this mostly for harm reduction purposes. Taking this route is healthiest because you've put the least amount of PEDs in your body. And a 160lb person needs less PEDs (if any) to grow at a good rate than a 250lb person. Like the speed of light, your body can only grow so fast or shed fat so fast.

I agree. There's that. There's also the attempt to control the variables in everyone's n=1 self-experimentation.

The newbie who starts weight training and within a year is already using AAS, hgh, insulin, etc. can make crazy gains.

However, he never really learns how to train; he never really learns how to use AAS; he never really learns how to use hGH; etc; etc.

Yet he thinks he does because he's making crazy gains. But what can he attribute to training? To AAS? To hGH? He can never be sure. And his unsupported/false certainty ends up spreading a lot of misinformation.

Better approach is to methodically introduce different variables. First, spend a couple years learn how to train, what works, what doesn't. Then, add a AAS, testosterone for example; try different ones; try combinations; find out what works, what doesn't. After a couple more years, maybe consider other variables.

In the end, it's still n=1 but a more informed n=1

 

[Type-IIx]

what about the ORIGIN trial? from a section of draft paper written by Richard Holt:
The ORIGIN trial looked at insulin use among people with impaired glucose tolerance and cardiovascular risk and showed that there was a 20% reduction in the risk of diabetes in those treated with insulin (30% vs 35%), albeit at the cost of increased rates of hypoglycemia and weight gain.[28] Thus, there are grounds for bodybuilders to believe that they may be reducing their risk of developing diabetes by using insulin. However, as there has been no research conducted on the impact of exogenous insulin in younger people with normal glucose metabolism this is speculation. Nevertheless, the ORIGIN finding supports further research into the effect of insulin regimens on endocrine pancreatic function.
28. Investigators TOT. Basal Insulin and Cardiovascular and Other Outcomes in Dysglycemia. The New England Journal of Medicine 2012;367(4):319-28.

Thank you for taking my comments exactly as intended, as constructively as possible!

This (the ORIGIN Trial), I have not read yet, but will right away. I've never seen the risk reduction quantified before, so this is GREAT data. I've always viewed (and still do really) insulin as very effective at mitigating the hyperglycemia/IR from rhGH, but believe its use falls at the end of the continuum with respect to ameliorating this harm (i.e., berberine > Metformin > GLP-1 agonists > insulin).

For raw anabolism, GH+insulin is just unbelievably potent. I'm not sure many that advocate its use as a "plateau buster" for when AAS use reaches its "limits" (which are truly unbounded) actually follow this rhetorical concept. It's one of those harm reduction tropes that sounds great, but in reality, the guys that rationally (quite aside from the new breed of guys using slin/GH early on in their training) start slin/GH are those that want to grow massively at whatever cost.