nolva vs clomid

[dbo]

Dr. Scally, how long do you recommend waiting after stopping AAS use before checking HPTA status? Also, which tests do you need to check HPTA status? LH, FSH, anything else?

 

[BBC3]

That is a good question. My guess is that WITHOUT PCT, one would probably wait off cycle, for as long as they had been on cycle, prior to testing to be sure of the final results. A better question would be:

What is the sum total effect of PCT, as an effective HPTA restoration? Does the use of Clomid or Nolvadex truely shorten one's time to be naturally suppressed after TRT or PCT treament ceases, or is PCT merely the mitigation of a now ongoing problem that is not truely resolved without equal time off?

Dr Scally please. Scenerio: You have a TRT dosage (200mg/wk high side) level patient who has been supplementing Testosterone Cypionate for 2 years uninterrupted. He may have even "cheated" from time to time and run a T dose of 600mgs/wk in 6 week intervals from time to time, but not within 12 weeks of cessation. In this example, there are no other health issues or drugs involved. Say a 32 year old patient that has given up on HRT. He had a "livable" natural T level of 350ng/dl prior to starting HRT. If upon cessation of the exogenous T, with consideration of a good 12 weeks for any half-lives (in this scenerio) to metabolize out, what is the protocol given both (1) HCG use while on the whole time and (2) no HCG use. Does the use of these drugs(Clomid and/or Nolva) as an HPTA stimulator effectively shorten the time to full recovery, or merely mitigate and treat the problem of low HPTA activity while waiting for the natural time to recover. Could a person be fully restored in as little as the 12 week given clearance period? What would be the effective time difference to recovery here? Worst and best case?

I apologize if I am not making reference to any of your already posted treatment protocols. I wanted to see your thoughts here in this situational based scenerio to help get a clear picture.

Dr. Scally, how long do you recommend waiting after stopping AAS use before checking HPTA status? Also, which tests do you need to check HPTA status? LH, FSH, anything else?

 

[BBC3]

BUMP for Dr. Scally..

 

[IronCore]

So... In conclusion Doctor, it is shown by your studies that the combination of Nolva and Clomid would be the most effective for of PCT. Which would be precluded by the use of hcg as recommended in your other postings... correct?

AND... BBC3 is an ass hat! (just kidding) [)]

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Dr. Scally, how long do you recommend waiting after stopping AAS use before checking HPTA status? Also, which tests do you need to check HPTA status? LH, FSH, anything else?

I did not know this post was around. It is okay to PM about a post! The question is multi-factorial. What is the reason for checking the HPTA? In the typical situation where there is AAS cycling, I presume the HPTA is being checked for PCT. If this is the case, the timing has do with the specifics of the cycling AAS. In this case, only the total testosterone (TT) is needed.

Regarding PCT, there is a series of HPTA checks. The labs will depend upon what part of the HPTA is being evaluated. After successful PCT completion, the HPTA status should be checked one month or more after stopping the SERMs (LH, FSH, TT). [Note: this assumes a normal HPTA.]

 

[Michael Scally MD]

So... In conclusion Doctor, it is shown by your studies that the combination of Nolva and Clomid would be the most effective for of PCT. Which would be precluded by the use of hcg as recommended in your other postings... correct?

AND... BBC3 is an ass hat! (just kidding) [)]

No, I do not know how you come to this conclusion. The PCT is a staged restoration. hCG is necessary for the first stage - testes function.

 

[IronCore]

Doc I really don't want to waste your time with bickering because I truly value the information you give.

That is what I said, Precluded...

Using hCG in the weeks leading to PCT then Nolva and Clomid together... Is that not what your studies have shown to be the most effective in HTPA restoration? Please correct me if I suffer from a reading comprehension issue. I don't want to incorrectly administer anything that will irreversibly harm my body.

 

[BBC3]

I mean, really, what is an asshat? I have to give that Concilliator credit when its due. I would just like to know what it is I am being called.???:drooling: Anyone??

So... In conclusion Doctor, it is shown by your studies that the combination of Nolva and Clomid would be the most effective for of PCT. Which would be precluded by the use of hcg as recommended in your other postings... correct?

AND... BBC3 is an ass hat! (just kidding) [)]

 

[Millard]

That is what I said, Precluded...

You mean preceded NOT precluded?

 

[IronCore]

yeah... that too... thanks Millard

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I mean, really, what is an asshat? I have to give that Concilliator credit when its due. I would just like to know what it is I am being called.???:drooling: Anyone??

Frustration by others when they fail to comprehend!

 

[IronCore]

So... What is the correct answer in plain English please?

hCG leading up to PCT which consist of Clomid AND Nolva...

Asshat is a slightly trendier and less severe variation of asshole, graphically describing someone who has his “head up his own ass” (i.e., not knowing what’s going on): one is wearing one’s ass for a hat. A more modern usage of asshat describes a person doing something stupid, and can apply to anyone: “The boss is up to asshattery because he broke the computer even though he knew he was doing the wrong thing.” This meaning was popularized by Something Awful character Jeff K. The word is popular in many online communities, serving as a more palatable version of its antecedent. According to Google’s Usenet statistics, the word only saw a token appearance every day or two starting in July 1999, but following a slow rise in 2002, it entered popular usage in May 2003. As it continued to grow in popularity, asshat began to be used by online gamers, in first person shooter and massively multiplayer role playing games. It was a commonplace word on servers where vulgar language was not allowed.

(Wikipedia)

 

[Deacon]

Whats the point of this? The bottom line is that for the purpose of E feedback for purposes of signaling the HPTA, by whatever means. Whether it is a heavy circlating amount of E in the system, or the body's percieved lack there of, for SERM purposes here are the facts.

NOLVA is a chemical that just happens to like to bind to E receptors in certain areas (breast tissue, prostate, etc). NOLVA prefers some E receptors and not others.
**** CERTAIN AREAS OF E BLOCKING = less overall estrogen blockage = more overall circulating resulting in LESS uptaked E by means of deprivation of E to certain areas.

CLOMID is a chemical that more accurately resembles the natural Estrogen structure and binds with receptors due to this fact.
****GENERALIZED SYSTEMWIDE E BLOCKING = even more overall estrogen blockage = even more overall E left circulating, and THAT MUCH LESS uptaked E by means of a more overall systemwide blockade.

YOU have to weigh and balance the other (side) effects, and inherent dangers of the drug you are willing to take. Go to the manufacturer website and read what these drugs do to you!

FACT: Nolva only partially affects E, are you going to get as good an E related response, NO. You may also benefit in the fact that you may not go to sleep crying like a bitch every night as an added benefit of this fact. If partial E blockage is all it takes to get the HPTA back online, and you decide that the risk of the other affects of NOLVA are acceptable. Then take that one. I am guessing that while NOLVA only blocks E to certain areas, it is more of a complete block on those areas.

FACT: Clomid will bind to E receptors on a more systemwide basis. You will therefore have a much greater and overall E related response. With that said you will also wind up with more E floating around to make you cry, or cause other harm associated. While it would seem to me that this drug clearly will have the greatest effect on the HPTA, decide whether or not ALL of the affects are acceptable to you. And take that one. I am guessing that with clomid you have more of a "competition" for estrogen sites, and a more variable dose related blocking response.

BUT: Dont sit here saying that Nolva is a better drug for HPTA restoration due to the fact that it only takes 20mgs to get the same affect of more Clomid! They are apples and oranges with clearly different flavors. Who knows why they work, perhaps one crosses the blood/brain barier and the other doesn't. Perhaps one directly affects the pituitary by means of direct physical action and the other doesn't. Maybe while the NOLVA only blocks E uptake to limited areas, it blocks it more completely than CLOMID, and this complete blockage to only a few areas is more important than a partial blockage thougout. Who knows.

I am assuming, the means by which they stimulate the HPTA is by the deprivation of E's interaction with the body, thus signalling that there is not enough hormone being produced (Master T to convert to E). So now we make more T to give our body the proof thereof that lies within the again received presence of E by the receptors, hence telling the HPTA that there is again now T in the body. Who knows, SERMS could stimulate the HPTA due to the fact that the body now has an overwhelming proportion of E-to-T and is now trying to produce more T to counter, simply for the purpose of making T. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS FOR SURE.......NOW, CHOOSE YOUR POISON. Who gives a shit if it takes 1mg of cyanide or 100mgs of arsenic to effectively harm you. The effect is the same IN RELATION TO THE DRUG. I AM SO FUCKING SICK OF HEARING PEOPLE SAY THAT NOVLA IS THE BETTER OPTION BECAUSE IT ONLY TAKES 20MGS!!!!!!!! Get the point.

FORGET about the fact that pound for pound, NOLVA stimulates the HTPA better. WHO GIVES A SHIT IF ONLY 10mgs of NOLVA equals the action of 50mgs of CLOMID!!!?!?!?!?!? You have to choose which chemical you want to put in your body, and the consequences there of.

PERSONALLY, I feel that if one chooses to use either drug for the purpose of stimulating the HPTA, consider there are two options and diversify your risk. Use one this time, and the other next, etc.......

NOW HERE IS A QUESTION GENERATED FROM THIS BRIEF RANT....: If it is in fact the percieved lack of E2 uptake at receptor sites that stimulates the HPTA, then why does this not hold true to DHT?? It should. If there is no notable increase in HPTA activity by the blocking of DHT uptake then perhaps that theory is not true. Perhaps SERMS are simply stimulating Testosterone production as a means of creating more T to effect proper balance again. Or better yet, perhaps SERMS are having a direct affect of the hypothalmus, or pituitary, than currently believed. Does Finasteride stimulate the HPTA. If not, perhaps this is the proof that SERMS are acting in some other manner than currently thought. After all, Adex is not a good stimulator at all. Why would it not. Pehaps the DEGREE to which hormones are blocked is the key factor alone, and the number of areas, or overall area affected is not important. But only certain ones (breast, etc), the ones containing the most receptors, hold the power, and the importance is not in overall receptor interaction throughout the body, but the completeness of the action on key body parts......!

Food for thought. Eat up....

well put bro

 

[Michael Scally MD]

So... What is the correct answer in plain English please?

hCG leading up to PCT which consist of Clomid AND Nolva...

Asshat is a slightly trendier and less severe variation of asshole, graphically describing someone who has his “head up his own ass” (i.e., not knowing what’s going on): one is wearing one’s ass for a hat. A more modern usage of asshat describes a person doing something stupid, and can apply to anyone: “The boss is up to asshattery because he broke the computer even though he knew he was doing the wrong thing.” This meaning was popularized by Something Awful character Jeff K. The word is popular in many online communities, serving as a more palatable version of its antecedent. According to Google’s Usenet statistics, the word only saw a token appearance every day or two starting in July 1999, but following a slow rise in 2002, it entered popular usage in May 2003. As it continued to grow in popularity, asshat began to be used by online gamers, in first person shooter and massively multiplayer role playing games. It was a commonplace word on servers where vulgar language was not allowed.

(Wikipedia)

IronCore: I would like to chime in only by saying personal attacks are unnecessary, do not provide information, confuse others as well as cloud the issue at hand, and for me, detract me from answering. As you can now see, your initial post was confusing - preclude or precede - for its intent. Regardless, I answered. I respect the Meso reader, you included, to read and evaluate the information. Can you help me answer your latest post by first stating the personal attack was over the top, not meant, etc. ...

 

[Deacon]

I know that the regimine of HCG from the day of my last test shot up the 2-3 week clearance time followed by PCT works best for me - I have tried all combos or versions of PCT and have come upon what my body seems to respond to

is HCG prior to PCT essential? IMO yes - as long as it is not overdone - in fact I suspect many overdose their HCG and then suffer rebound

back to the original argument - I am sorry but I dont care what the chemical structure of something is - just results

also I have had clomid sides effects a few times over the years - the depression is the worse when they hit - but in fact combining the two clomid and nolva has often worked and at times have not - so who knows what the best for "you" would be on any given cycle? It seems to me to vary cycle to cycle

 

[Deacon]

IronCore: I would like to chime in only by saying personal attacks are unnecessary, do not provide information, confuse others as well as cloud the issue at hand, and for me, detract me from answering. As you can now see, your initial post was confusing - preclude or precede - for its intent. Regardless, I answered. I respect the Meso reader, you included, to read and evaluate the information. Can you help me answer your latest post by first stating the personal attack was over the top, not meant, etc. ...

I have to agree with the Doc on this one - the personal attack is out of line - at any time

 

[IronCore]

Sure thing doc... I was just ribbing BBC3... I actually think he is a brilliant writer and an asset to this community. Sorry...

I apologize for my misuse of the word precede... Preclude was defiantly the wrong word to be used in this scenario as it would actually mean that no hCG would be used...

please allow me to restate my original question...

Dr. Scally,

From reading your previous post and the abstracts pdf you posted, is it correct that the recommend regimen for restoring HTPA function would consist of hCG following the last injection, then completed with the use of Clomid and Nolva together.

The reason I ask you directly is that on this and other forums there are many opinions on the PCT regime. I would like to base my personal usage on facts obtained through research, which you have personally conducted.

 

[Deacon]

Sure thing doc... I was just ribbing BBC3... I actually think he is a brilliant writer and an asset to this community. Sorry...

I apologize for my misuse of the word precede... Preclude was defiantly the wrong word to be used in this scenario as it would actually mean that no hCG would be used...

please allow me to restate my original question...

Dr. Scally,

From reading your previous post and the abstracts pdf you posted, is it correct that the recommend regimen for restoring HTPA function would consist of hCG following the last injection, then completed with the use of Clomid and Nolva together.

The reason I ask you directly is that on this and other forums there are many opinions on the PCT regime. I would like to base my personal usage on facts obtained through research, which you have personally conducted.

thats how I would do it - as long as you do not run the HCG into PCT with clomid and nolva

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Sure thing doc... I was just ribbing BBC3... I actually think he is a brilliant writer and an asset to this community. Sorry...

I apologize for my misuse of the word precede... Preclude was defiantly the wrong word to be used in this scenario as it would actually mean that no hCG would be used...

please allow me to restate my original question...

Dr. Scally,

From reading your previous post and the abstracts pdf you posted, is it correct that the recommend regimen for restoring HTPA function would consist of hCG following the last injection, then completed with the use of Clomid and Nolva together.

The reason I ask you directly is that on this and other forums there are many opinions on the PCT regime. I would like to base my personal usage on facts obtained through research, which you have personally conducted.

Thanks for the help! I am indebted to you for your graciousness. If I do not answer completely, PM me. The hCG use can be during cycle, nearing the end of cycle, or at the conclusion of cycle. Confusing? The most important part is the timing for the hCG administration. For example, TC/TE 500 mg/week for 12 weeks will provide a serum testosterone level upon the last injection somewhere around 7,000 ng/dL. The PCT must consider the TC/TE half-life. From 7,000 ng/dL, it will be about 4 weeks until the HPTA attempts to restart (ideally/theoretically). Thus, the SERMs should not begin until this point, although I do include them earlier to decrease the negative feedback of the hCG and E2.


I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.

The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.

Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.

Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.

In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism, hypogonadotropic or secondary, is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.

Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen.

 

[IronCore]

"Thanks for the help! I am indebted to you for your graciousness. "

NO... Sir, it is I who am indebted to YOUR graciousness for providing help based on your years of experience in this field. Thank you for your help and dedication to this research. You work has without doubt helped many men!

Thanks again!