UFC 116 Discussion

[Stretch]

What are you - 23? Never watched Pride? new to the sport?

Noggie is a god! If for no other reason than he has ONE LUNG!!!!! Yeah, that's right, that motherfucker goes 25 minutes with ONE LUNG!

On top of that, he took 3 Crocop kicks to the head and didn't go down. He won that fight.

What are you - 60???? Senile??? Forgetting shit??? I could go without your condescending intro....


Noogie is a not a fucking god. I'm not 23, and I watch EVERY brand of MMA. Even the IFL...let alone PRIDE. Noogie was a helluva fighter...tough as nails...great chin...epic jiu-jitsu...I'm just not a huge fan of his. I don't think he'll be remembered 10 years from now as a guy who was a legendary fighter.

Who cares that he has one lung??...Jim Abbott had ONE HAND and pitched professional baseball....by YOUR logic he would be the best pitcher who ever lived!!....

 

[Jeton]

I say we pool up some funds and get a good fight going...

Stretch v. Jeton
and
KingBigDaddy v. StfuTheBitch.....
[)]

EPIC BATTLE...

that would be funnier than u imagine...

anyway, it was heartbreaking to see Fedor lose in such a sloppy manner to Werdum, i think part of him continues to wish he'd let his arm snap n try to finish Werdum anyway. Coleman was indeed over-the-hill when he lost to Fedor, but anyone who fails to understand Fedor's greatness isn't as well-versed in the sport as they think they are.

there has been a general increase in fighter quality to innovations in technique, and the homogenization of those innovations as MMA has exploded. however, at the highest levels the advantage afforded by innovation becomes less significant, and individual talent + discipline remain the deciding factors. enough so that simply saying "the best fighters of 2000 would be the also-rans of 2010" is stupid, stupid and more stupid.

 

[Stretch]

that would be funnier than u imagine...

anyway, it was heartbreaking to see Fedor lose in such a sloppy manner to Werdum, i think part of him continues to wish he'd let his arm snap n try to finish Werdum anyway. Coleman was indeed over-the-hill when he lost to Fedor, but anyone who fails to understand Fedor's greatness isn't as well-versed in the sport as they think they are.

there has been a general increase in fighter quality to innovations in technique, and the homogenization of those innovations as MMA has exploded. however, at the highest levels the advantage afforded by innovation becomes less significant, and individual talent + discipline remain the deciding factors. enough so that simply saying "the best fighters of 2000 would be the also-rans of 2010" is stupid, stupid and more stupid.

You are a complete idiot. An idiot with good communications skills so that less intelligent individuals cannot perceive how truly idiotic you actually are.

Normally when using quotation marks in the English language you are QUOTING an individual, meaning you USE THE SAME, IDENTICAL, words that the original speaker used.

So who the hell are you quoting at the end of ur post u cocksucker?

What I said was that a (watch the quotation marks) "fantastic fighter in 2000 would be a middle of the road guy in 2010" I may have overstated it a bit, but the larger point I was trying to make is this:

The UFC brought MMA to the U.S. in 1993. The idea was to have a tournament where experts in every martial art around the world come and fight to decide which martial art and which practitioner were the best.

To cut the story short, the first tournament was in '93 Royce Gracie won 3 of the first 4 tournaments despite the lack of weight classes and his 165lb frame. The idea originally was just to do ONE TOURNAMENT, little did the supporters know they were inventing a sport.

Anyways, the Gracie family REVOLUTIONIZED fighting, as years progressed the tournament featured fewer and fewer karate black-belts, fewer and fewer tae-kwon-do experts. Go back and look at youtube and watch the fights from the original 1993 UFC, it's CRAZY. Those "experts" look like children fighting in the backyard compared to the current UFC fighters, the difference is truly startling.

My point is this. You state that: " at the highest levels, the advantages afforded by innovation becomes less signifigant and individual talent + discipline remains the deciding factor". This would be true if we were comparing 2000 BASKETBALL players to 2010 BASKETBALL players. Basketball is an old sport, it is not growing at the same rate that MMA is. The game is evolving, but MUCH SLOWER than it did when it was a new sport.

 

[Jeton]

1) You are a complete idiot. An idiot with good communications skills so that less intelligent individuals cannot perceive how truly idiotic you actually are.

Normally when using quotation marks in the English language you are QUOTING an individual, meaning you USE THE SAME, IDENTICAL, words that the original speaker used.

So who the hell are you quoting at the end of ur post u cocksucker?

2) What I said was that a (watch the quotation marks) "fantastic fighter in 2000 would be a middle of the road guy in 2010" I may have overstated it a bit, but the larger point I was trying to make is this:

3) The UFC brought MMA to the U.S. in 1993. The idea was to have a tournament where experts in every martial art around the world come and fight to decide which martial art and which practitioner were the best.

To cut the story short, the first tournament was in '93 Royce Gracie won 3 of the first 4 tournaments despite the lack of weight classes and his 165lb frame. The idea originally was just to do ONE TOURNAMENT, little did the supporters know they were inventing a sport.

4) Anyways, the Gracie family REVOLUTIONIZED fighting, as years progressed the tournament featured fewer and fewer karate black-belts, fewer and fewer tae-kwon-do experts. Go back and look at youtube and watch the fights from the original 1993 UFC, it's CRAZY. Those "experts" look like children fighting in the backyard compared to the current UFC fighters, the difference is truly startling.

5) My point is this. You state that: " at the highest levels, the advantages afforded by innovation becomes less signifigant and individual talent + discipline remains the deciding factor". This would be true if we were comparing 2000 BASKETBALL players to 2010 BASKETBALL players. Basketball is an old sport, it is not growing at the same rate that MMA is. The game is evolving, but MUCH SLOWER than it did when it was a new sport.

1) know ur place n shut ur face, child.
2) different words, same meaning, same result: u RETRACT ur ridiculous claim as an OVERSTATEMENT.
3) first of all, it WASN"T "MMA" in the early UFC's, it was basically a glorified kumite with some very basic protections (no eye-gouging, no biting) that served as a Gracie family BJJ promotional vehicle. this idea ran unfettered until the Gracie/Shamrock debacle of UFC#5, when the reality of 30+ min in guard got just a bit too homoerotic for the audience n "Big John" enforced the first stand-up in the UFC to that point. THEN the focus began to shift toward beyond-Gracie promotion.
4) syncretism of martial arts dates back to at least Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do, as well as the functional hand-to-hand training of various military org.s worldwide. modern MMA really was innovated by several fighting camps, the Pat Militic fighting camp being first among them...many in the Gracie family have long been dismissive of that.
5) MMA certainly continues to evolve, but the modern "Greco-Roman/Muay Thai/ BJJ" template certainly existed in force well before 2000...if anything, transition-speed and the careful integration of boxing techniques would be the most prominent changes from 2000 to 2010...hardly revolutionary, at least in terms of the VAAAAST bulk of fighters.

i grew up on this shit, fool, and i've also watched UFC LIVE since 1993's UFC#1, so wag ur amateur wikipedia'd finger at somebody else.

[)]

 

[Stretch]

1) know ur place n shut ur face, child.
2) different words, same meaning, same result: u RETRACT ur ridiculous claim as an OVERSTATEMENT.
3) first of all, it WASN"T "MMA" in the early UFC's, it was basically a glorified kumite with some very basic protections (no eye-gouging, no biting) that served as a Gracie family BJJ promotional vehicle. this idea ran unfettered until the Gracie/Shamrock debacle of UFC#5, when the reality of 30+ min in guard got just a bit too homoerotic for the audience n "Big John" enforced the first stand-up in the UFC to that point. THEN the focus began to shift toward beyond-Gracie promotion.
4) syncretism of martial arts dates back to at least Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do, as well as the functional hand-to-hand training of various military org.s worldwide. modern MMA really was innovated by several fighting camps, the Pat Militic fighting camp being first among them...many in the Gracie family have long been dismissive of that.
5) MMA certainly continues to evolve, but the modern "Greco-Roman/Muay Thai/ BJJ" template certainly existed in force well before 2000...if anything, transition-speed and the careful integration of boxing techniques would be the most prominent changes from 2000 to 2010...hardly revolutionary, at least in terms of the VAAAAST bulk of fighters.

i grew up on this shit, fool, and i've also watched UFC LIVE since 1993's UFC#1, so wag ur amateur wikipedia'd finger at somebody else.

[)]

Gimme a break greco-roman/muay thai/bjj template existed "in force" well before 2000??? Are you high?? What exactly is your definition of "well-before"?

And, TO ME, the change you made in my word's was dramatic, ur new statement did not have the same meaning. And if you were paraphrasing the use of quotations marks is still incorrect. kid.

Furthermore, we actually agree on one point. The integration of boxing techniques, along with transition-speed is probably the most prominent change, at least in terms of technique.

Personally I attribute much of the increase in the ability of the today's fighters to two causes.

1) the fact that the UFC and MMA as a whole are attracting the SUPERIOR athletes which in the past may have focused on more "mainstream" sports. Guys who are extremely gifted athletes, like Brock Lesnar.

2) Increase in experience with MMA SPECIFICALLY. Obviously all UFC competitors have always been experienced fighters, but the guys who are competing at 22y/o today have been competing at MMA since they were 12. Training IN A CAGE, ON THE MAT, 5 min Rds., all those little things that I can say from ring experience make a big difference, to the amount of comfort a fighter has in the ring.

 

[Jeton]

Gimme a break greco-roman/muay thai/bjj template existed "in force" well before 2000??? Are you high?? What exactly is your definition of "well-before"?

And, TO ME, the change you made in my word's was dramatic, ur new statement did not have the same meaning. And if you were paraphrasing the use of quotations marks is still incorrect. kid.

Furthermore, we actually agree on one point. The integration of boxing techniques, along with transition-speed is probably the most prominent change, at least in terms of technique.

Personally I attribute much of the increase in the ability of the today's fighters to two causes.

1) the fact that the UFC and MMA as a whole are attracting the SUPERIOR athletes which in the past may have focused on more "mainstream" sports. Guys who are extremely gifted athletes, like Brock Lesnar.

2) Increase in experience with MMA SPECIFICALLY. Obviously all UFC competitors have always been experienced fighters, but the guys who are competing at 22y/o today have been competing at MMA since they were 12. Training IN A CAGE, ON THE MAT, 5 min Rds., all those little things that I can say from ring experience make a big difference, to the amount of comfort a fighter has in the ring.

ur initial excuse-making NOTwithstanding, ur numbered points r both spot-on, and both r consequences of MMA starting to mature as a sport. in fact i've asked Dana White directly on time on the Scott Ferral Show:

"what, if anything, is UFC doing to establish a controlling infrastructure for the training of MMA fighters? has any consideration ever been given to eventually establishing a UFC-run "minor/bush league", or do u intend to rely on the current system of fighters haphazardly training in assorted schools, fighting in local promotions and attempting to get on ur radar that way? do u think that addressing this system will be necessary if UFC is ever going to succeed in fully capitalizing on MMA's dominating popularity in the male 18-39 demographic? WHEN WILL UFC ESTABLISH "SATURDAY NITE MMA" WITH THE SAME LEVEL OF CULTURAL IMPORTANCE AS "MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL??"

he was taken aback, admitting that for the foreseeable future he expects fighters to find UFC more than the other way around, and that it will take "5-10 years, maybe" for the sort of institutionalization i was talking about.

i don't think Fertitta and White have the "vision thing", honestly...more so when i see CBS' Fedor fights, and how much better their more inexperienced production is.

anyway, ur "paraphrasing" rant is STILL a weak back-pedal.

 

[Jeton]

btw, the greco/muay/bjj/groundnpound template IS/WAS the emergence of modern MMA...........................................
.............................






..............CIRCA 1996-1998!!







HOWEVER, in fairness i will allow u the fact that very few people saw the fights of this era, as they occurred during the Dark Ages of UFC...when US lawmakers were basically trying to hound it out of existence.

 

[Stretch]

My original point was referring to how dramatically I believe fighters have improved, specifically the comment was specifically pertaining to 2000-2010. You called this statement "stupid, stupid,stupid". Please don't misunderstand I stand by my statement, I have not "back-pedaled" at all.

However, we don't even actually disagree. I used wording that was a little strong cause that's how I am about my opinions, (over the top). YOU....either, A) disdain me so much that you took the opportunity to pounce on a slight overstatement, without considering the thought behind my wording OR B) Just plain enjoy arguing so damn much you couldn't resist a chance two sound intelligent.

As with most things in life the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Either way, you know ur shit 'bout this sport. And whether I like you or not, I do respect your knowledge, even though I often question your motives/maturity.

And before I risk sounding too civil...if you disagree with anything I've said in this post, let the arguing continue homo....lol

 

[Stretch]

btw, the greco/muay/bjj/groundnpound template IS/WAS the emergence of modern MMA...........................................
.............................






..............CIRCA 1996-1998!!







HOWEVER, in fairness i will allow u the fact that very few people saw the fights of this era, as they occurred during the Dark Ages of UFC...when US lawmakers were basically trying to hound it out of existence.

Right, so my point remains. 96-98 the template of Greco/bjj.......began to CONSIDERABLY pick up speed. In the early 2000's the sport hit main stream with the Ultimate Fighter, and WHAMMY...A new sport is born....But even by YOUR math it's only been 12 years since the greco/bjj/muay style took off, and you think that the rate of innovation has already begun to plateau??? I couldn't disagree more, I believe that the talent of fighters over the last 12 years has gone THROUGH THE ROOF. And I believe it will continue to do so, as more and more elite athlete's can do in this sport.

I mean, imagine a guy like....Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson....we have yet to see what a man with God given ability like that can do with proper MMA training from their teens through adulthood.

OUR generation will find out!

 

[Jeton]

My original point was referring to how dramatically I believe fighters have improved, specifically the comment was specifically pertaining to 2000-2010. You called this statement "stupid, stupid,stupid". Please don't misunderstand I stand by my statement, I have not "back-pedaled" at all.

However, we don't even actually disagree. I used wording that was a little strong cause that's how I am about my opinions, (over the top). YOU....either, A) disdain me so much that you took the opportunity to pounce on a slight overstatement, without considering the thought behind my wording OR B) Just plain enjoy arguing so damn much you couldn't resist a chance two sound intelligent.

As with most things in life the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Either way, you know ur shit 'bout this sport. And whether I like you or not, I do respect your knowledge, even though I often question your motives/maturity.

And before I risk sounding too civil...if you disagree with anything I've said in this post, let the arguing continue homo....lol

actually ur silly statement went from "over the top" to just "stupid" when u added those foolish attacks on my beloved Fedor...u would have been better off making ur numbered points about fighters training in MMA from the get-go, n the wider range of candidates interested in the sport...both of those points were far more intelligent than ur silly technique claim, which was (a bit understandably) ignorant of history.

yes i like arguing, but yes, ur also a douchebag, and i'm sure u can concede that we've established some mutual hostility here. how that develops, WHO THE FUCK CARES...the Internet is the land of strangers, friends, enemies n frenemies...n people transition across those categories all the fukn time.


on a side note, i AM delighted that MMA has finally taken off...as a kid from a martial arts family, i grew up wishing that something like modern MMA existed, bcuz with all respect to boxing fans, i found boxing unspeakably boring as a kid.

 

[Jeton]

Right, so my point remains. 96-98 the template of Greco/bjj.......began to CONSIDERABLY pick up speed. In the early 2000's the sport hit main stream with the Ultimate Fighter, and WHAMMY...A new sport is born....But even by YOUR math it's only been 12 years since the greco/bjj/muay style took off, and you think that the rate of innovation has already begun to plateau??? I couldn't disagree more, I believe that the talent of fighters over the last 12 years has gone THROUGH THE ROOF. And I believe it will continue to do so, as more and more elite athlete's can do in this sport.

I mean, imagine a guy like....Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson....we have yet to see what a man with God given ability like that can do with proper MMA training from their teens through adulthood.

OUR generation will find out!

uh, The Ultimate Fighter series didn't take off (n take UFC with it) until 2005-6, n while the sport continues to evolve, the BIRTH of modern MMA is certainly 96-98...when MIXED Martial Arts became an operative term about WHAT the fighters were ACTUALLY DOING. i've never said innovation has "plateaued", ur paraphrase is more egregious than mine.

finally, ur initial post about the evolution of technique was simply unsupportable, specifically (since ur so quote-militant) that the "fantastic fighter in 2000 would be a middle of the road guy in 2010"...u were past over-the-top, and into the Land Of Silly.[}]

 

[Stretch]

on a side note, i AM delighted that MMA has finally taken off...as a kid from a martial arts family, i grew up wishing that something like modern MMA existed, bcuz with all respect to boxing fans, i found boxing unspeakably boring as a kid.

As with many sports, until one possesses a full appreciation for the level of sacrifice and committment required to develope a particular skill set, they cannot find a true interest in the sport.

To be grossly stereotypical--it's why bitches dont' watch footall....THEY DON"T GET IT.

 

[Jeton]

As with many sports, until one possesses a full appreciation for the level of sacrifice and committment required to develope a particular skill set, they cannot find a true interest in the sport.

To be grossly stereotypical--it's why bitches dont' watch footall....THEY DON"T GET IT.

pretty reductive of u, bcuz the fact is from a young age it was easy to see that a good deal of boxing technique is intrinsically tied to the idea of what an opponent can and cannot do. many boxing stances scream "kick me in the knee!" "sweep my ass to the floor" "pick me up n slam my head into the wall"...yet opponents simply face each other, dukes up. if u grow up aiming kicks at someone's head, boxing looks like 2 guys wrapped in saran-wrap from the chest down, Ali's fancy footwork notwithstanding.

of course it's extremely hard to ascend to the top ranks of any established sport, but that will always have little to do with the appeal of any given sport...it's not a differentiating factor.

i find boxing boring, n many boxing fans find MMA "gay", often literally. opinions, everyone has them.

 

[Stretch]

pretty reductive of u, bcuz the fact is from a young age it was easy to see that a good deal of boxing technique is intrinsically tied to the idea of what an opponent can and cannot do. many boxing stances scream "kick me in the knee!" "sweep my ass to the floor" "pick me up n slam my head into the wall"...yet opponents simply face each other, dukes up. if u grow up aiming kicks at someone's head, boxing looks like 2 guys wrapped in saran-wrap from the chest down, Ali's fancy footwork notwithstanding.

of course it's extremely hard to ascend to the top ranks of any established sport, but that will always have little to do with the appeal of any given sport...it's not a differentiating factor.

i find boxing boring, n many boxing fans find MMA "gay", often literally. opinions, everyone has them.

Ya, once again we agree. My dad boxed at the Kronk gym in Detroit, and growing up I followed in his footsteps as a golden gloves fighter. BUT even a generational boxer like myself still believes that boxing doesn't hold a candle to MMA. I really don't even think boxing will hardly be a sport in another 50 years.

 

[Jeton]

Ya, once again we agree. My dad boxed at the Kronk gym in Detroit, and growing up I followed in his footsteps as a golden gloves fighter. BUT even a generational boxer like myself still believes that boxing doesn't hold a candle to MMA. I really don't even think boxing will hardly be a sport in another 50 years.

well i think Boxing is a product of the late 19th century mores, and so the rules and limitations derive from there.

did u catch Matyushenko get his head pounded in tonight on Versus? Randy Couture said of Jones: "he's what a call a 3rd generation MMA fighter...the first generation wanted to prove THEIR style was the best, the 2nd generation (which i consider myself a part of) came from a specific background but we realized we needed to mix it up, and Jones belongs to this new generation of fighters we're seeing coming up, training in different styles all along"

i MAY be slightly paraphrasing, but i dont tivo this shit so rest assured the quote is close enuff.

 

[Jeton]

also, i'm really looking forward to next saturday but i think Chael Sonnen is talking more shit that he can back up...it's not like he was so dominating recently as to justify his trash talking. still, it WOULD be nice to see Silva get pushed...i just doubt Sonnen's gonna do it much.

reaction?

 

[Stretch]

well i think Boxing is a product of the late 19th century mores, and so the rules and limitations derive from there.

did u catch Matyushenko get his head pounded in tonight on Versus? Randy Couture said of Jones: "he's what a call a 3rd generation MMA fighter...the first generation wanted to prove THEIR style was the best, the 2nd generation (which i consider myself a part of) came from a specific background but we realized we needed to mix it up, and Jones belongs to this new generation of fighters we're seeing coming up, training in different styles all along"

i MAY be slightly paraphrasing, but i dont tivo this shit so rest assured the quote is close enuff.

That's interesting that Couture made that comment, I'm so excited to see what this "third" generation of fighters will bring.

In regards to Sonnen and Silva: I agree that Sonnen is talking WAY more shit than he will be able to back up, but it's nothing fight fans aren't used to. Remember when Tyson was still the most feared man on the planet. In order to sell some tickets and PPV's the challenger would have to talk shit for 6 months before the fight just to work up some hype. I would bet that much of Sonnen's talk could be at the request of Dana. I don't believe I've ever seen a fighter as well rounded as Silva. I think GSP is the only man who comes close, at least right now. I like Silva's strikes over GSP's. That'd be one helluva fight.

 

[Jeton]

That's interesting that Couture made that comment, I'm so excited to see what this "third" generation of fighters will bring.

In regards to Sonnen and Silva: I agree that Sonnen is talking WAY more shit than he will be able to back up, but it's nothing fight fans aren't used to. Remember when Tyson was still the most feared man on the planet. In order to sell some tickets and PPV's the challenger would have to talk shit for 6 months before the fight just to work up some hype. I would bet that much of Sonnen's talk could be at the request of Dana. I don't believe I've ever seen a fighter as well rounded as Silva. I think GSP is the only man who comes close, at least right now. I like Silva's strikes over GSP's. That'd be one helluva fight.

well, to be fair it seems that Sonnen has his own trashtalking circuit built in...awhile back he'd bragged "i'm a Republican, there's no way u;ll ever see ME on MY back with a grown man between my legs!" of course, 1 or 2 fights later, there he is, "in guard" (or "missionary", as he calls it).

as for Silva, one of my most cringeworthy memories was watching him induce concussions on an opponent while Silva is mostly on his back in guard. ur not SUPPOSED to hit the hardest part of a head with ur elbow, yet there he is, indulging primitive neurosurgery from his back. poor Travis Lutter! [)]