Hypogonadism / Wanna do Steroids - PLEASE HELP!

[Rebuild]

hey,
this is my first post, though I have read a few! My situation is as follows:
- I am 32.
- When I was a kid I had two undescended testes, the right one was surgically brought down at age 7 and the other one came down of its own accord.
- Right testicle is soft and tiny, left one is a bit bigger and harder but still really small.
- I have a 5 and half inch penis when erect, but when flacid its as tiny as it could possibly be
- I have had a type of arthritis called Ankylosing Spondylitis for over 10 years and I am very skinny, all my muscles around my hips are very tight and i have hip damage. The disease has pretty much burned out but the damage is left.

- I used to do weights before the arthtitis and was quite stong, very skinny but really toned and strong for my weight, I kinda had a build like Bruce Lee!
- doing weights, the feeling I get during and after it really helps ease my arthritis and my muscles, I put this down to the T circulating being produced.

- I wanna flood my body with T, but without risking any damage to my already small balls!! Is there any way i can do a light cycle of steroids and make sure there is no testicular atrophy??
- I read in a few places that people on steroids and HCG during the cycle actually experienced an increase in teste size, sex drive etc etc..

Please advise!!
Thank you so much
Rebuild

 

[Michael Scally MD]

What diagnoses do you have? Did you go though puberty well? Are you infertile? Do you have testing? From your post, you might be a very good candidate for TRT. Have you ever been offered TRT?

 

[Rebuild]

hey michael, thanks for rapid response!
yeah I went through puberty in that i grew hair underarms and in pubic area, now at 32 I can grow a ferocious beard but the hair is light and soft, as is the air on my head and all over my body.. my body grew a few inches in height too during puberty and before the arthritis I was 5,11 but very skinny maybe 125 lbs
not sure how much my balls grew as i cant remember what they were like before, but cant have been that much, my voice is deep enough too
have had no tests for fertility yet
havent been offered TRT at all,
diagnosis re arthritis: Ankylosing spondylitis

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I read in a few places that people on steroids and HCG during the cycle actually experienced an increase in teste size, sex drive etc etc..

Please advise!!
Thank you so much
Rebuild

The mention of hCG recalled the following study. While not wholly relevant to your post, it does address hCG administration on factors you raise. Also, the article, once again, points out the fallacy of hCG desensitization. The hCG dose is 5,000 IU twice weekly. This is more than any treatment I see posted and far greater than the 250-500 IU two times weekly often cited in TRT. Regardless, the use of hCG alone is not recommended. Note, however, the decrease in testes size.


Liu, PY, SM Wishart, DJ Handelsman, A double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial of recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin on muscle strength and physical function and activity in older men with partial age-related androgen deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2002. 87(7): p. 3125-35.

Despite partial androgen deficiency, the safety and efficacy of androgen therapy in older men remains controversial because controlled studies of testosterone have given equivocal results. Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) can be conveniently and infrequently self-administered, and it increases not only circulating testosterone but also estradiol and other testicular steroids. We evaluated the efficacy and safety of 3 months of treatment with sc recombinant hCG (r-hCG, Ovidrel) on muscle mass, strength, mobility, and physical activity in ambulant, community-dwelling men more than 60 yr old having partial androgen deficiency (testosterone < or = 15 nmol/liter, twice). Forty eligible men (mean age, 67 yr; range, 60-85 yr) were randomized to receive r-hCG (5000 IU, 250 microg) or placebo by twice weekly sc self-injection and were studied before treatment, monthly during treatment, and 1 month after treatment. All completed the study, and treatment groups were well matched. r-hCG significantly increased body weight (approximately 1 kg; P < 0.05) and lean body mass ( approximately 2 kg; P < 0.001) and reduced fat mass (approximately 1 kg, P < 0.05). However, anthropometric measures of skinfold thickness (biceps, triceps, subscapular, suprailiac) and circumferences (midarm, waist, hip, and midthigh), including the waist-hip ratio, did not change significantly. Shoulder and knee strength (peak torque), as measured by isokinetic and isometric dynamometry, was not significantly increased, nor was physical activity (accelerometry and Physical Activity Scale for Elderly self-report) or gait and balance (modified Guralnik and Frailty and Injuries: Cooperative Studies of Intervention Techniques performance batteries) altered. Total and free testosterone and estradiol were markedly (150%; P < 0.001) and stably increased, whereas LH, FSH, and urea were significantly decreased. Testis volume was significantly decreased (approximately 5 ml; P < 0.05). There were no significant changes in hemoglobin, osteocalcin, or prostate-specific antigen, and the International Prostate Symptom Score did not change. Three men developed nipple tenderness that did not progress to gynecomastia. We conclude that 3 months of treatment with twice weekly r-hCG demonstrates sustained androgenic effects on hormones and muscle mass but has no effect on muscle strength or physical functioning.

 

[BBC3]

Rebuild, you mention you want to flood your body with T. Read alot first. You may not need to flood as much as you think. You also need to understand the big picture considering your stats.

If you dont have bloodwork you need to get some. Read around, but get these at a min:
LH & FSH
Test and free test
SHBG
Estradiol
DHT
Prolactin
PSA
cholesterol
CMP
CBC
thyroids

You dont need all of these simply to measure HPTA activity for T purposes, but its your body and they are all relevant.
While you may feel you are playing with fire (and you are), there is probably a reason you are here. You are 32 and your natural hormones are really starting to decline and you probably feel it. Most important is to find out your current hormone levels prior to screwing with them, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU!!! There is nothing wrong with wanting to live a better life. You have found the right place. I am also saying that you would be supprised what a little test can do, (in relation to a lot of test), You really dont have to go blasting a 600mg/wk test stacked with 400 mgs of deca to achieve results. Read. Start with test only for sure. Get your baselines, and set new ones with one drug at a time, or you will never know where the hell you are.

Note that there is a serious declining curve when it comes to dosage vs. benefits. There are only so many receptors available for hormones. Too much = organ strain = waste and negative results. Too much does not equal more muscle or energy.

 

[Rebuild]

Thank you so so so much guys, I am at my wits end here at the moment, never been so stressed!!

I want to be careful, go as slowly as I can...I want to make my testicles / system healthier and not the opposite!

I am seeing my doctor on tuesday and will ask for these tests!!! Thank you!!

BBC3 when you say start with test, you mean a prescription of TRT????

what I am thinking is this: I could start weights again, improve my diet and try and build up as much as possible, get my T levels up a bit and then start a very low dose of steroids.

If i started a very low dose of anabolic steroids, on a short cycle of say 4-5 weeks, would i risk damaging my testicles or natural production of T, and if so could I offset it with small dose of HCG or something else???

 

[cvictorg]

The mention of hCG recalled the following study. While not wholly relevant to your post, it does address hCG administration on factors you raise. Also, the article, once again, points out the fallacy of hCG desensitization. The hCG dose is 5,000 IU twice weekly. This is more than any treatment I see posted and far greater than the 250-500 IU two times weekly often cited in TRT. Regardless, the use of hCG alone is not recommended. Note, however, the decrease in testes size.


Liu, PY, SM Wishart, DJ Handelsman, A double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial of recombinant human chorionic gonadotropin on muscle strength and physical function and activity in older men with partial age-related androgen deficiency. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2002. 87(7): p. 3125-35.

Despite partial androgen deficiency, the safety and efficacy of androgen therapy in older men remains controversial because controlled studies of testosterone have given equivocal results. Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) can be conveniently and infrequently self-administered, and it increases not only circulating testosterone but also estradiol and other testicular steroids. We evaluated the efficacy and safety of 3 months of treatment with sc recombinant hCG (r-hCG, Ovidrel) on muscle mass, strength, mobility, and physical activity in ambulant, community-dwelling men more than 60 yr old having partial androgen deficiency (testosterone < or = 15 nmol/liter, twice). Forty eligible men (mean age, 67 yr; range, 60-85 yr) were randomized to receive r-hCG (5000 IU, 250 microg) or placebo by twice weekly sc self-injection and were studied before treatment, monthly during treatment, and 1 month after treatment. All completed the study, and treatment groups were well matched. r-hCG significantly increased body weight (approximately 1 kg; P < 0.05) and lean body mass ( approximately 2 kg; P < 0.001) and reduced fat mass (approximately 1 kg, P < 0.05). However, anthropometric measures of skinfold thickness (biceps, triceps, subscapular, suprailiac) and circumferences (midarm, waist, hip, and midthigh), including the waist-hip ratio, did not change significantly. Shoulder and knee strength (peak torque), as measured by isokinetic and isometric dynamometry, was not significantly increased, nor was physical activity (accelerometry and Physical Activity Scale for Elderly self-report) or gait and balance (modified Guralnik and Frailty and Injuries: Cooperative Studies of Intervention Techniques performance batteries) altered. Total and free testosterone and estradiol were markedly (150%; P < 0.001) and stably increased, whereas LH, FSH, and urea were significantly decreased. Testis volume was significantly decreased (approximately 5 ml; P < 0.05). There were no significant changes in hemoglobin, osteocalcin, or prostate-specific antigen, and the International Prostate Symptom Score did not change. Three men developed nipple tenderness that did not progress to gynecomastia. We conclude that 3 months of treatment with twice weekly r-hCG demonstrates sustained androgenic effects on hormones and muscle mass but has no effect on muscle strength or physical functioning.

There's also this study

Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced a... [Fertil Steril. 2003] - PubMed result

Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:1659-61.

Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.
Menon DK.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. drmenon2000@yahoo.co.uk

Comment in:

Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.

OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.


That's an incredibly high dose of hcg - 10,000 iu's 3x.week for 3 months

 

[HeadDoc]

neither study supports the desensitization hypothesis. The results of the second, a case study, would suggest a larger group study with men of varying ages to systematically replicate the finding.

 

[BBC3]

I was merely saying that if you are low T and go on TRT, you may be supprised how much a 200mg (high side trt) dose will do. AND if you are not low but elect to use "steroids" for the sake of physical strength, use testosterone only for a first experience, I have a feeling you will test out on the low side. however, and have an option for trt. Then you can go from there.

Thank you so so so much guys, I am at my wits end here at the moment, never been so stressed!!

I want to be careful, go as slowly as I can...I want to make my testicles / system healthier and not the opposite!

I am seeing my doctor on tuesday and will ask for these tests!!! Thank you!!

BBC3 when you say start with test, you mean a prescription of TRT????

what I am thinking is this: I could start weights again, improve my diet and try and build up as much as possible, get my T levels up a bit and then start a very low dose of steroids.

If i started a very low dose of anabolic steroids, on a short cycle of say 4-5 weeks, would i risk damaging my testicles or natural production of T, and if so could I offset it with small dose of HCG or something else???

 

[Michael Scally MD]

There's also this study
Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced a... [Fertil Steril. 2003] - PubMed result

Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin. Menon DK. Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.

That's an incredibly high dose of hcg - 10,000 iu's 3x.week for 3 months

Thanks for the reminder! I have read so many hCG articles, I am unable to keep them committed to memory. The article of interest is attached. Despite the very high hCG dose (10,000 IU TWICE PER WEEK) and the other literature, many will continue believe in this myth.

Attachment: Menon, DK, Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin. Fertil Steril, 2003. 79 Suppl 3: p. 1659-61.

 

[BBC3]

Dr Scally was pointing out that HCG protocal alone is sometimes considered instead of T replacement as a singular treatment and that while it behaves a little like T replacement. In that study, it actually shrank the boys in that scenerio overall. You must consider that this shrikage is probably minimal in comparison to the atrphy that can occur from a heavy cycle of T. BUT the HCG will act as a pro-agonst causing minimal increases in the same hormones that supplementing T does, by means of artificially stimulating the testicles to produce T. Not adding exogenous. He does not advocate HCG use as TRT alone.

Cvictor stated that large doses wont harm and may restore the dead.

Head doc affirmed large doses may not hurt indeed.

You question was will HCG preserve testicular size while supping testtosterone? The answer is yes, and more effectively in the short run I think. You should also consider HMG which stimulates the other side of the nut, so to speak. They are both probably acceptable to protocol in with a testosterone replacement regimen, but also as controversial (if not moreso) as T replacement in its self. You also need to understand estrogen control while supping T.

Specifically, if you have administered exogenous T for a period of say 12 weeks, and you are experiencing atrophy of the testicles, HCG WILL blow them right up. How long it last and how successful the restore will be determined by the length of past and continued exposure to T..

 

[Rebuild]

Thank you so much guys!! I just wanna say that, I really appreciate you helping me, getting bloods done tomorrow morn so should have some concrete info for yous in the next few days!
Cheers

 

[Rebuild]

Blood Test Results in....well the ones I could get done at the local hospital anyway!

TSH .88 mU/L range (0.4 - 4.0mUL)
Free T4 17.4 pmol/L range (8.5 - 22 pmol/L)
Prolactin 193 mU/L range (60 - 360)
FSH 9 U/L range <12
LH 6 U/L range <8


other things

my PLT are high at 452
Mono is high at 1.0
Chlosterol is 3.7
and potassium is high at 5.2

still waiting on the T and Free T

thoughts so far????

 

[Rebuild]

so it seems that the hospital dont do Testosterone testing or some bullshit like that so all i have are the tests i posted the results for and then the SHBG came in and i got it today,

SHBG 31nmol/1

any thoughts at this point about private testing etc and what any of the results mean so far??

 

[legalmandickslap]

the idea of adding hmg is a good one, however nobody can afford it, and unless your insurance covers fertility treatments (which many specifically exclude) you'd be looking at well over $1,000.00/month just for the hmg. clomid is a more practical alternative.