Book - PCT/AIH

I am so excited for this to release.

Do we have to enter the FB group to ask questions? Can we not create a thread here or something?
 
I have a question...not sure if it belongs in this thread or a separate thread?

My question is the through what mechanisms do SERMS stimulate endogenous testosterone production? I always hear it "stimulates" LH production, but thats the extent I can find. I have heard that since SERMS block certain estrogen receptors, the body thinks its under producing estrogen due to the lack of binding and attempts to produce more test to have converted. Is this the direct mechanism that SERMS work through, or is this an indirect stimulating effect?

EDIT: Bonus question, also if this is the case, then how does taking an AI not help due to an overall lower estrogen level to further increase the signal that there is a lack of estrogen?
 
I have a question...not sure if it belongs in this thread or a separate thread?

My question is the through what mechanisms do SERMS stimulate endogenous testosterone production? I always hear it "stimulates" LH production, but thats the extent I can find. I have heard that since SERMS block certain estrogen receptors, the body thinks its under producing estrogen due to the lack of binding and attempts to produce more test to have converted. Is this the direct mechanism that SERMS work through, or is this an indirect stimulating effect?

EDIT: Bonus question, also if this is the case, then how does taking an AI not help due to an overall lower estrogen level to further increase the signal that there is a lack of estrogen?


Both work by decreasing the E2 negative feedback. They are worthless to use for this purpose while on cycle.
 
Is it possible or even likely that one can cycle onto to a worthwhile AAS routine for, say, 12 weeks twice a year, and then go off again in between (including PCT time), and actually recover full HPTA function — even after years of this routine?

I think not.

Respects,
Solo
 
Is it possible or even likely that one can cycle onto to a worthwhile AAS routine for, say, 12 weeks twice a year, and then go off again in between (including PCT time), and actually recover full HPTA function — even after years of this routine?

I think not.

Respects,
Solo


Yes, but that would depend on the AAS cycle. Rather than confine yourself to a time interval (year), the question is whether one can restore HPTA function after AAS. If that is true, then what are the AAS type, dose, duration ...
 
Two other questions that crossed my mind:

To what extent does youth/age take into account in recovery, is it true that younger men over 21 will find recovery to be easier for them?

Is there a dosage of test which would be mildly effective that over a time period of a cycle of 8 weeks or so, that will only suppress but not shutdown completely?
 
Is this a possible use in AIH?

Homburg R, Singh A, Bhide P, Shah A, Gudi A. The re-growth of growth hormone in fertility treatment: a critical review. Hum Fertil (Camb) 2013;15(4):190-3. An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Several clinical studies have recently been published documenting the possible role of adjuvant growth hormone treatment in in vitro fertilization. These studies have been performed on different groups of patients including poor ovarian responders, patients with polycystic ovary syndrome and with hypogonadotrophic-hypogonadism. The aim of this review is to examine relevant studies in the last 25 years, on the use of growth hormone in assisted conception and trace the train of events that has lead to the resurgence of interest in this subject.
 
Two other questions that crossed my mind:

To what extent does youth/age take into account in recovery, is it true that younger men over 21 will find recovery to be easier for them?

Is there a dosage of test which would be mildly effective that over a time period of a cycle of 8 weeks or so, that will only suppress but not shutdown completely?


I believe the younger the better for recovery. However, the AAS type, dose, and duration would be of the greatest import.

The HPTA shuts down even after a small exogenous dose, just not for long. For clinical purposes, shutdown = suppress.
 
Model of hCG Signal Transduction [For those so inclined or motivated]
Human choriogonadotrophin protein core and sugar branches heterogeneity: basic and clinical insights

Model of hCG signal transduction showing the signaling specificity domain (SSD) on the extracellular surface of the transmembrane domain (TMD) and the leucine-rich domain (LRD) near the SSD–TMD complex.

hCG binds to the specific receptor on the membrane of the target cell. The hCG/LH receptor is encoded by a single gene, located on human chromosome 2p21 and belongs to superfamily of G protein-coupled seven transmembrane (TM) domain receptors.

The NH2- and COOH-terminal portions of the LRD contact the ends of the SSD and TMD helices. hCG binding increases the distance between the top of the SSD and the top of LRD, promotes the rotation of LRD and a gate-like movement of the LRD and creates a binding pocket for TMD rearrangement and signaling.

After binding, hCG activates its receptor and the heterotrimeric G-protein-coupled receptor is formed. GDP is released from the G-protein and is replaced by GTP.

This leads to dissociation of the G-protein subunits into ?-subunit and ?? dimer. G? activates adenylate cyclase, which leads to an increase in intracellular cAMP levels, stimulation of PKA expression of steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR), cholesterol uptake, and steroidogenic enzymes activation (P450scc, 3?-HSD, P450c17).

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I did not read all the posts, so maybe this q was answered, but where can I get this book?

As per our convo, I take it that you are not going to include my idea for a chapter devoted to picking up chicks?:p

Also, do you have a chapter on fat acting esters, as I believe this topic has been neglected[:o)]
 
human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG)

There is no other molecule like hCG.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG), a glycoprotein hormone produced by the human placenta, is composed of an alpha and a beta sub-unit with a molecular mass of 36.7 kDa. The ? (alpha) subunit is 92 amino acids long. The ?-subunit of hCG gonadotropin contains 145 amino acids.

The ?-subunit has 2 N-linked oligosaccharides, and a non-covalently linked acid ß-subunit with 2 N-linked oligosaccharides and 4 O-linked oligosaccharides. The structure of each variant of hCG varies considerable in carbohydrate structure. hCG molecules also vary greatly in charge, due to variation in sialic acid sugar content.

The ? sub-unit is essentially identical to the ? sub-units of the human pituitary gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), as well as to the alpha sub-unit of human thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH). The beta sub-units of these hormones differ in amino acid sequence and thus confer biological specificity of the hormones.

The different composition of these oligosaccharides affects bioactivity and speed of degradation. hCG is the longest circulating molecule in human blood with a circulating half life of 36 hours (2160 minutes). LH has a circulating half-life of ~25 minutes. Effectively, hCG extends its biological activity 2160/25 or 86-fold over LH.

The action of hCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although hCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well. It stimulates production of gonadal steroid hormones by stimulating the interstitial cells (Leydig cells) of the testis to produce androgens and the corpus luteum of the ovary to produce progesterone.

Human LH (hLH) and CG (hCG) also differ in some structural features, such as the presence of a carboxyl terminal peptide (CTP) and the type and amount of glycosylation. Due to this heterogeneity and derivation from extractive preparations, gonadotropins have been difficult to quantify accurately in the past, and most in vitro experiments have been conducted using urinary hCG calibrated by in vivo bioassay against standard preparations expressed in activity units.

With the advent of recombinant gonadotropins, highly homogeneous and consistent r-hLH and r-hCG can be accurately quantified in molar terms and used to compare their effects in vitro at exactly equimolar concentrations.

Being structurally different, it should be expected that hLH and hCG display different hormone-receptor interaction features and, consequently, might be not equivalent at molecular and cellular level. This was found to be true in a recent study, “LH and hCG Action on the Same Receptor Results in Quantitatively and Qualitatively Different Intracellular Signalling.” They concluded the LH/hCGr is able to differentiate the activity of hLH and hCG.

Any statement that LH & hCG are bioequivalent is clearly wrong.

hCG is water soluble. The sterile lyophilized powder is stable. When reconstituted with Bacteriostatic Water for Injection preserved with benzyl alcohol 0.9%, the solution should be refrigerated and used within 30 days, although it has been found to be effective for longer periods.
 
Casarini L, Lispi M, Longobardi S, et al. LH and hCG action on the same receptor results in quantitatively and qualitatively different intracellular signalling. PLoS One 2013;7(10):e46682. PLOS ONE: LH and hCG Action on the Same Receptor Results in Quantitatively and Qualitatively Different Intracellular Signalling

Human luteinizing hormone (hLH) and chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) act on the same receptor (LHCGR) but it is not known whether they elicit the same cellular and molecular response. This study compares for the first time the activation of cell-signalling pathways and gene expression in response to hLH and hCG. Using recombinant hLH and recombinant hCG we evaluated the kinetics of cAMP production in COS-7 and hGL5 cells permanently expressing LHCGR (COS-7/LHCGR, hGL5/LHCGR), as well as cAMP, ERK1/2, AKT activation and progesterone production in primary human granulosa cells (hGLC). The expression of selected target genes was measured in the presence or absence of ERK- or AKT-pathways inhibitors. In COS-7/LHCGR cells, hCG is 5-fold more potent than hLH (cAMP ED(50): 107.1+/-14.3 pM and 530.0+/-51.2 pM, respectively). hLH maximal effect was significantly faster (10 minutes by hLH; 1 hour by hCG). In hGLC continuous exposure to equipotent doses of gonadotropins up to 36 hours revealed that intracellular cAMP production is oscillating and significantly higher by hCG versus hLH. Conversely, phospho-ERK1/2 and -AKT activation was more potent and sustained by hLH versus hCG. ERK1/2 and AKT inhibition removed the inhibitory effect on NRG1 (neuregulin) expression by hLH but not by hCG; ERK1/2 inhibition significantly increased hLH- but not hCG-stimulated CYP19A1 (aromatase) expression.

We conclude that: i) hCG is more potent on cAMP production, while hLH is more potent on ERK and AKT activation; ii) hGLC respond to equipotent, constant hLH or hCG stimulation with a fluctuating cAMP production and progressive progesterone secretion; and iii) the expression of hLH and hCG target genes partly involves the activation of different pathways depending on the ligand. Therefore, the LHCGR is able to differentiate the activity of hLH and hCG.
 
Reversal of Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism

“Therefore, brief discontinuation of hormonal therapy to assess reversibility of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is reasonable.”

“Furthermore, the postreversal neuroendocrine profiles demonstrated activation of the hypothalamo–pituitary–gonadal axis in adulthood.”



Androgen Induced Hypogonadism (AIH) is a form of functional hypogonadism. Constitutional delay of puberty, idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism share several pathophysiological similarities: male predominance, familial predisposition, and disordered gonadotropin secretion.

In patients with these disorders, the response to appropriate GnRH stimuli is the restoration of secretion of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone, which points to the primacy of the hypothalamic disorder in the pathogenesis of the disorders The GnRH, SERM, and AI challenges are similar and share mechanisms of action.

Some patients with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may undergo delayed activation of the hypothalamic–pituitary–testicular axis. This finding raises the possibility that idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, constitutional delay, and functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism — all characterized by disordered timing or regulation of the GnRH pulse generator — may result from analogous or overlapping pathophysiological mechanisms.

In this study, 10% of the 50 men with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism who discontinued reproductive hormonal therapy maintained adult levels of serum testosterone, revealing a relatively high incidence of reversal. There are practical implications of this observation.

They suggest that patients with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, with or without anosmia and regardless of their previous pubertal development, should be informed of the possibility of fertility and the spontaneous reversal of hypogonadism. In addition, men with idiopathic/functional hypogonadotropic hypogonadism should be reassessed for recovery of the hypothalamo–pituitary–gonadal axis.

The number of neurons producing GnRH in the human hypothalamus is relatively small (<2000), and these neurons are distributed as a diffuse network, rather than as a discrete nucleus. Such anatomy may render the GnRH pulse generator functionally vulnerable to minor perturbations, leading to GnRH deficiency and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

Although the precise mechanism of reversal of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is unclear, the mechanism may involve plasticity of the GnRH-producing neurons in adulthood. Plasticity, defined as the ability of the nervous system to adapt in response to the environment, is a striking feature of the vertebrate brain.

Although neurogenesis in humans is thought to occur primarily during embryonic and early postnatal stages, multipotential progenitor cells residing in the subcortical white matter of the adult human brain have recently been identified as having the potential to replace neuronal lineages. Furthermore, neurons in the olfactory epithelium, the olfactory bulbs, and the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus are generated throughout life, and their generation appears to be modulated by sex steroids.

Indeed, exposure to sex steroids, although the length of exposure was variable, seems to be a common denominator in the patients who underwent reversal. They therefore speculate that sex steroids enhance the plasticity of the neuronal network producing GnRH in the adult human brain, leading to reversal of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.


Raivio T, Falardeau J, Dwyer A, et al. Reversal of Idiopathic Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism. N Engl J Med 2007;357(9):863-73. MMS: Error

Background: Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, which may be associated with anosmia (the Kallmann syndrome) or with a normal sense of smell, is a treatable form of male infertility caused by a congenital defect in the secretion or action of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). Patients have absent or incomplete sexual maturation by the age of 18. Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism was previously thought to require lifelong therapy. We describe 15 men in whom reversal of idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism was sustained after discontinuation of hormonal therapy.

Methods: We defined the sustained reversal of idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism as the presence of normal adult testosterone levels after hormonal therapy was discontinued.

Results: Ten sustained reversals were identified retrospectively. Five sustained reversals were identified prospectively among 50 men with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism after a mean ({+/-}SD) duration of treatment interruption of 6{+/-}3 weeks. Of the 15 men who had a sustained reversal, 4 had anosmia. At initial evaluation, 6 men had absent puberty, 9 had partial puberty, and all had abnormal secretion of GnRH-induced luteinizing hormone. All 15 men had received previous hormonal therapy to induce virilization, fertility, or both. Among those whose hypogonadism was reversed, the mean serum level of endogenous testosterone increased from 55{+/-}29 ng per deciliter (1.9{+/-}1.0 nmol per liter) to 386{+/-}91 ng per deciliter (13.4{+/-}3.2 nmol per liter, P<0.001), the luteinizing hormone level increased from 2.7{+/-}2.0 to 8.5{+/-}4.6 IU per liter (P<0.001), the level of follicle-stimulating hormone increased from 2.5{+/-}1.7 to 9.5{+/-}12.2 IU per liter (P<0.01), and testicular volume increased from 8{+/-}5 to 16{+/-}7 ml (P<0.001). Pulsatile luteinizing hormone secretion and spermatogenesis were documented.

Conclusions: Sustained reversal of normosmic idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and the Kallmann syndrome was noted after discontinuation of treatment in about 10% of patients with either absent or partial puberty. Therefore, brief discontinuation of hormonal therapy to assess reversibility of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is reasonable.


Bhasin S. Experiments of Nature -- A Glimpse into the Mysteries of the Pubertal Clock. N Engl J Med 2007;357(9):929-32. MMS: Error
 
Came up with a few more questions for you.

What can be considered more suppressive in the long run? Dosage or period of use? For example, if someone were to inject 8g of Test Prop over a period of 8 weeks, and then another person taking that same dosage over a period of 16 weeks. Would the sheer amount of Test being introduced cause an overall more suppressed HTPA than one that has been exposed to exogenous androgens for twice the time?

When following the on/off time period, most people consider time on = time off, do you agree with this, do you also include the time period on PCT in this "off time period".
 
I know this question is for Scally, but I have a lot of experience w/ this issue. Answers in bold

Came up with a few more questions for you.

What can be considered more suppressive in the long run? Dosage or period of use? For example, if someone were to inject 8g of Test Prop over a period of 8 weeks, and then another person taking that same dosage over a period of 16 weeks. Would the sheer amount of Test being introduced cause an overall more suppressed HTPA than one that has been exposed to exogenous androgens for twice the time? I cannot fully answer this question, as I am not sure which is "more" suppressive. What I can tell you is that both cycles will shut you down, and pretty completely. In either case, you will need a full on pct.

When following the on/off time period, most people consider time on = time off, do you agree with this, do you also include the time period on PCT in this "off time period".
Which is better? I am not sure, but I personally count the time of pct as time off. IE, you ran a 12 week cycle, and have been on SERMs for 3 weeks, you have 9 weeks to go. This advice may very well be bad in terms of health, it has actually helped me discipline myself. If I had 12 weeks to go post my last Serm, I probably would not make it. There are just too many quality sources, and I have access to gear I could only dream about 20 years ago. Like I said, this protocol may indeed not be the healthiest, and Scally should probably chime in here, but by including SERM period, I can make 8 more weeks. Once your discipline breaks down, it can easily become a free for all. I can illustrate this point w/ an example:One of my Friends, a married dentist, is always trying to get me to go to the strip club. He has cheated on his wife pretty regularly. He even wanted to use my rental property as a place he can bring his "dates." In my observations, once you start cheating, it then becomes a free for all. I have never cheated on my wife because I know that once I broke through that barrier I probably would not stop. It is the same way w/ gear/ IMO
 
Q: Can one use hCG in primary, testicular failure, hypogonadism, to increase serum testosterone levels? Is it possible to use hCG for TRT?

A: It is a misnomer to equate primary hypogonadism, often called testicular failure with the absence of testes reserve, the ability to produce testosterone. This is most likely due to a misunderstanding what qualifies for the diagnosis of primary hypogonadism.

Primary hypogonadism is classified by abnormally low serum testosterone (<300 ng/dL) combined with abnormally elevated gonadotropins LH (&/or FSH). This definition does not speak to the testes reserve or ability to respond to hCG, but rather the testes response requires abnormally high levels of LH.

hCG is 50-86 times more biologically active than LH. Due to this difference, there is the real possibility that hCG administration will elicit a significant testes response. This is the case. [In fact, I am consulting on a case presently where this is the clinical context. The baseline labs are a TT 193 & LH 25. Upon hCG 2,000 IU Q3D, the TT rose to 550 ng/dL.]

In 2005, a study demonstrated significant testosterone (T) and estradiol (E2) response after hCG administration. Serum T and E2 responses were more attenuated in men with LH > or =17 IU/L as compared to men with lower LH levels.

As far as use for TRT, there would be the limitation from E2 production causing side effects. Additionally, the question would remain for the possibility of actual testes failure, no response. However, if there is an adequate response, minimal side effects, a trial would be supported.

Meier C, Christ-Crain M, Christoffel-Courtin C, Staub JJ, Muller B. Serum estradiol after single dose hCG administration correlates with Leydig cell reserve in hypogonadal men: reassessment of the hCG stimulation test. Clin Lab 2005;51(9-10):509-15. Clinical Laboratory - Abstracts

The hCG stimulation test with assessment of serum testosterone (T) is used for evaluation of testicular function. This retrospective study was undertaken to estimate the diagnostic value of stimulated estradiol (E2) levels in the assessment of Leydig cell function. Serum T and E2 before and after repeated daily hCG injections in 23 adult men with clinically suspected or established primary hypogonadism were studied.

After hCG administration serum T increased gradually with peak levels after 72 hours (delta 84%, p=0.003). In contrast, serum E2 concentrations reached their maximal levels 24 hours after the first injection (delta 168%, p=0.001). Serum T and E2 responses were more attenuated in men with LH > or =17 IU/L as compared to men with lower LH levels. Peak E2 levels after 24 hours correlated significantly with peak T levels after 3 days.

We conclude that the increase in serum E2 levels 24 hours after a single hCG injection is an useful additional measure of Leydig cell function. Assessment of E2 increments would render the test procedure more practical, less time-consuming and more cost-effective than assessing peak T levels after 72 hours.

primary-hypo-hcg-gif.11125
 

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