malfeasance
Well-known Member
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MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
168 Beats Per Minute
- Thread starter malfeasance
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iris
Well-known Member
Thanks, yes, I saw your previous reply about this.
It's good!
So you know I've been cycling a lot more in the last 10 years or so. I always wear a heart monitor and usually average around 125-135 bpm over the course of 1-3+ hours.
And during which I do "sprint" intervals every week of 1-2 minutes which sees my HR regularly spike to 160s and 170s and occasionally in the 180s which exceeds my estimated maximum heart rate based on age. Sometimes I do 5-10 minute intervals but not that frequently. HR always quickly returns to 120-130 range when the intervals are finished.
My cardiologist says my heart health is terrific with thumbs up for engaging in strenuous physical activities. Yet at the same time advises that I don't "push myself too hard".
Which I find as some kind of bullshit advice because that's the whole point for me and always has been to find those limits and push against them whether it's bodybuilding or cycling.
I'm not really giving a thumbs up or thumbs down for you. I can relate to the questions you are asking. And just sharing my own experience. I think the whole idea of "don't push too far" is that if there are any vulnerabilities you are more likely to encounter it hence more risk... at any age.
Slowww
Well-known Member
I read research about cholesterol that says above 140 is basically where you want it if you’re a middle aged healthy man if you’re trying to get better HDL/LDL etc and that is where it has a significantly good effect on it. Don’t think anything is wrong with what you’re doing and that kind of cardio is definitely what most guys should be doing especially if they are using gear. Not sure why pushing a bit harder would be bad. Maybe has some diminishing returns in regard to positive effects on health though, but idk
Benf15harp
Well-known Member
Checked the ol’ ticker this AM and had a whopping 50BPM RHR after eating a lot and quite a bit of caffeine & test base. Was before a nice ephedrine injection though
malfeasance
Well-known Member
I had no idea figure skating was so good for the heart.Checked the ol’ ticker this AM and had a whopping 50BPM RHR after eating a lot and quite a bit of caffeine & test base. Was before a nice ephedrine injection though
malfeasance
Well-known Member
I am paying attention, and reading your post carefully, although I think you are probably quite a bit younger than me, although exceeding the maximum is still exceeding the maximum, so I suppose it is still very relevant.
Your suspicion of your doctor's advice as being BS is kind of what prompted this quote. I had a feeling that the posters with heart rates in the gym were BS. How can I be endangering my heart if I felt fine at the time?
Benf15harp
Well-known Member
lol. It’s the sewing of the sequins.I had no idea figure skating was so good for the heart.
egruberman
Well-known Member
Individual max HR is what it is, the formula is just a rule of thumb. As humans age, the left ventricle tends to get stiff reducing stroke volume, lowering VO2Max especially in sedentary individuals, but this is also true for aging athletes.
In my experience, the recommendation is that athletes over 40 could potentially cause injury with excessive VO2Max training (90-95% Max HR). Practically speaking, this applies to only a very small portion of the population.
My current perspective of the literature is that older folks should try to hit Max HR once or twice a week, which could also include a couple of sessions of VO2Max specific training.
For reference, the most optimal VO2Max training is the "Norwegian protocol" which is 4 intervals of cardio exercise at the maximum intensity that can be sustained for 4 minutes. Many, many studies have shown this protocol to be more efficient than Tabata, etc.
tl;dr you're doing fine.
I am not overly concerned about training near max HR. Maybe it's the same as you - I feel great so how how could I possibly damage my heart?
But as with this and other situations, I've never be comfortable just going by feelz. I needed a lot of other data points about my (heart) health to feel confident going forward. It's just overall risk assessment.
And as at any age, but particularly as we get older, recovery is very important. Extreme training when fatigued, especial chronic fatigue, isn't good for long-term progress/performance at any age but it should be more of a priority for guys over 40.
Very true - excessive VO2Max training is not something most people ever risk. Even following the Norwegian Protocol is usually too challenging.
Nonetheless, what type of injuries are we talking about? Thank you for your post and I would appreciate any study citations to catch up on the topic.
egruberman
Well-known Member
Myocardial fibrosis:
Diverse patterns of myocardial fibrosis in lifelong, veteran endurance athletes
This study examined the cardiac structure and function of a unique cohort of documented lifelong, competitive endurance veteran athletes (>50 yr). Twelve lifelong veteran male endurance athletes [mean ± SD (range) age: 56 ± 6 yr ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Afib:
There's also some evidence of cardiac remodeling. I'll see if I can dig up more.
malfeasance
Well-known Member
Could you set out these data points for me to read and then investigate?
Nothing out of the ordinary: EKG, echo test, stress test, HR, blood pressure, lipid panel, HCT...
egruberman
Well-known Member
No CT-CAC or CT-A?
iris
Well-known Member
Found these a few days ago.
They offer a different perspective to the articles linked above, so I decided to include them, here.
Not looking for confirmation bias or anything...
I wanted to make a little summary of each.
However, I started looking at them at 1.30am on Friday and there is so much information in there.
In the end, I am afraid all you are getting is the link, the title, the year of publication and the "conclusion" bit at the end.
Maybe someone will be interested and give them a quick read.
A lot of the stuff is quite interesting and in depth.
"Absence of cardiac damage induced by long term intensive endurance exercise training: a cardiac magnetic resonance and exercise echo radiography analysis in masters athletes" (2021)
[Conclusion: Despite significant physiological cardiac remodelling, consistent with previous descriptions of athlete's heart, there was no evidence of myocardial fibrosis or exercise left or right ventricular dysfunction or cardiac fibrosis in endurance athletes. Our results are not supporting the hypothesis of deleterious cardiac effects induced by long term and intensive endurance exercise training].
www.mdpi.com
"May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review" (2022)
[ In conclusion, our review suggests that very intense sports activity may cause reversible electrocardiographic changes, myocardial dysfunction, and troponin elevation with complete recovery within a few days. The theory that repeated bouts of acute stress on the heart may lead to chronic myocardial damage creating a potentially dangerous arrhythmogenic substrate remains to be demonstrated. However, male, middle-aged individuals with a long, athletic career show an increased prevalence of cardiovascular abnormalities such as electrical conduction delay, AF, myocardial LGE, and coronary calcifications compared to non-athletes. However, the cause–effect relationship between such abnormalities and exercise and, most importantly, their prognostic relevance remains to be established. Moreover, evidence of any exercise-related adverse effects on the hearts of female athletes is lacking.
Pending future studies, we believe that when advising athletes about the pros and cons of exercise, we should apply the old Latin aphorism dosis sola facit venenum (“only the dose makes the poison”). There is no doubt that exercise is a medicine, and the recent European Society of Cardiology guidelines emphasized that adapted physical activity is beneficial for all cardiovascular patients, not just healthy individuals [88]. However, an increased number of middle-aged individuals desire to challenge their physical limits by engaging in ultra-endurance sports. We should warn these subjects that such extreme physical activities might damage not only their tendons and joints but also their hearts].
academic.oup.com
"The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress" (2021)
[Conclusion: Regular physical exercise is imperative for the maintenance of optimal health and longevity and should be globally encouraged. There is emerging evidence that a proportion of athletes show high CAC scores, a higher plaque burden and myocardial fibrosis compared with age- and Framingham-matched controls. The mechanism and significance of these findings are unclear. Current limited data find no association between a high CAC score and all-cause mortality in master athletes].
They offer a different perspective to the articles linked above, so I decided to include them, here.
Not looking for confirmation bias or anything...
I wanted to make a little summary of each.
However, I started looking at them at 1.30am on Friday and there is so much information in there.
In the end, I am afraid all you are getting is the link, the title, the year of publication and the "conclusion" bit at the end.
Maybe someone will be interested and give them a quick read.
A lot of the stuff is quite interesting and in depth.
"Absence of cardiac damage induced by long term intensive endurance exercise training: a cardiac magnetic resonance and exercise echo radiography analysis in masters athletes" (2021)
[Conclusion: Despite significant physiological cardiac remodelling, consistent with previous descriptions of athlete's heart, there was no evidence of myocardial fibrosis or exercise left or right ventricular dysfunction or cardiac fibrosis in endurance athletes. Our results are not supporting the hypothesis of deleterious cardiac effects induced by long term and intensive endurance exercise training].
May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review
The positive effects of physical activity are countless, not only on the cardiovascular system but on health in general. However, some studies suggest a U-shape relationship between exercise volume and effects on the cardiovascular system. On the basis of this perspective, moderate-dose exercise...
www.mdpi.com
"May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review" (2022)
[ In conclusion, our review suggests that very intense sports activity may cause reversible electrocardiographic changes, myocardial dysfunction, and troponin elevation with complete recovery within a few days. The theory that repeated bouts of acute stress on the heart may lead to chronic myocardial damage creating a potentially dangerous arrhythmogenic substrate remains to be demonstrated. However, male, middle-aged individuals with a long, athletic career show an increased prevalence of cardiovascular abnormalities such as electrical conduction delay, AF, myocardial LGE, and coronary calcifications compared to non-athletes. However, the cause–effect relationship between such abnormalities and exercise and, most importantly, their prognostic relevance remains to be established. Moreover, evidence of any exercise-related adverse effects on the hearts of female athletes is lacking.
Pending future studies, we believe that when advising athletes about the pros and cons of exercise, we should apply the old Latin aphorism dosis sola facit venenum (“only the dose makes the poison”). There is no doubt that exercise is a medicine, and the recent European Society of Cardiology guidelines emphasized that adapted physical activity is beneficial for all cardiovascular patients, not just healthy individuals [88]. However, an increased number of middle-aged individuals desire to challenge their physical limits by engaging in ultra-endurance sports. We should warn these subjects that such extreme physical activities might damage not only their tendons and joints but also their hearts].
The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress
Abstract. Moderate physical exercise is associated with an irrefutable reduction in cardiac morbidity and mortality. The current guidelines recommend at le
academic.oup.com
"The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress" (2021)
[Conclusion: Regular physical exercise is imperative for the maintenance of optimal health and longevity and should be globally encouraged. There is emerging evidence that a proportion of athletes show high CAC scores, a higher plaque burden and myocardial fibrosis compared with age- and Framingham-matched controls. The mechanism and significance of these findings are unclear. Current limited data find no association between a high CAC score and all-cause mortality in master athletes].
Ateam2023
Well-known Member
interestingFound these a few days ago.
They offer a different perspective to the articles linked above, so I decided to include them, here.
Not looking for confirmation bias or anything...
I wanted to make a little summary of each.
However, I started looking at them at 1.30am on Friday and there is so much information in there.
In the end, I am afraid all you are getting is the link, the title, the year of publication and the "conclusion" bit at the end.
Maybe someone will be interested and give them a quick read.
A lot of the stuff is quite interesting and in depth.
"Absence of cardiac damage induced by long term intensive endurance exercise training: a cardiac magnetic resonance and exercise echo radiography analysis in masters athletes" (2021)
[Conclusion: Despite significant physiological cardiac remodelling, consistent with previous descriptions of athlete's heart, there was no evidence of myocardial fibrosis or exercise left or right ventricular dysfunction or cardiac fibrosis in endurance athletes. Our results are not supporting the hypothesis of deleterious cardiac effects induced by long term and intensive endurance exercise training].
May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review
The positive effects of physical activity are countless, not only on the cardiovascular system but on health in general. However, some studies suggest a U-shape relationship between exercise volume and effects on the cardiovascular system. On the basis of this perspective, moderate-dose exercise...
"May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review" (2022)
[ In conclusion, our review suggests that very intense sports activity may cause reversible electrocardiographic changes, myocardial dysfunction, and troponin elevation with complete recovery within a few days. The theory that repeated bouts of acute stress on the heart may lead to chronic myocardial damage creating a potentially dangerous arrhythmogenic substrate remains to be demonstrated. However, male, middle-aged individuals with a long, athletic career show an increased prevalence of cardiovascular abnormalities such as electrical conduction delay, AF, myocardial LGE, and coronary calcifications compared to non-athletes. However, the cause–effect relationship between such abnormalities and exercise and, most importantly, their prognostic relevance remains to be established. Moreover, evidence of any exercise-related adverse effects on the hearts of female athletes is lacking.
Pending future studies, we believe that when advising athletes about the pros and cons of exercise, we should apply the old Latin aphorism dosis sola facit venenum (“only the dose makes the poison”). There is no doubt that exercise is a medicine, and the recent European Society of Cardiology guidelines emphasized that adapted physical activity is beneficial for all cardiovascular patients, not just healthy individuals [88]. However, an increased number of middle-aged individuals desire to challenge their physical limits by engaging in ultra-endurance sports. We should warn these subjects that such extreme physical activities might damage not only their tendons and joints but also their hearts].
The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress
Abstract. Moderate physical exercise is associated with an irrefutable reduction in cardiac morbidity and mortality. The current guidelines recommend at le
"The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress" (2021)
[Conclusion: Regular physical exercise is imperative for the maintenance of optimal health and longevity and should be globally encouraged. There is emerging evidence that a proportion of athletes show high CAC scores, a higher plaque burden and myocardial fibrosis compared with age- and Framingham-matched controls. The mechanism and significance of these findings are unclear. Current limited data find no association between a high CAC score and all-cause mortality in master athletes].
egruberman
Well-known Member
The points I was referring to earlier were something I heard on Peter Attia's podcast, specifically with regard to ventricular stiffening. I searched quite a bit and couldn't come up with the reference, however. There are a couple of interesting episodes on this topic, specifically exercise for aging folks. Episode #217 is pretty good and talks about the J-curve dose-response relationship to exercise and a host of other interesting bits on preserving VO2Max while one ages. Episode #206 is an AMA with Peter who talks about specific protocols.
The tl;dr is that he does lots of zone 2 with one VO2Max session per week.
The tl;dr is that he does lots of zone 2 with one VO2Max session per week.
Ateam2023
Well-known Member
those were some lonng , good reads , thanks @irisFound these a few days ago.
They offer a different perspective to the articles linked above, so I decided to include them, here.
Not looking for confirmation bias or anything...
I wanted to make a little summary of each.
However, I started looking at them at 1.30am on Friday and there is so much information in there.
In the end, I am afraid all you are getting is the link, the title, the year of publication and the "conclusion" bit at the end.
Maybe someone will be interested and give them a quick read.
A lot of the stuff is quite interesting and in depth.
"Absence of cardiac damage induced by long term intensive endurance exercise training: a cardiac magnetic resonance and exercise echo radiography analysis in masters athletes" (2021)
[Conclusion: Despite significant physiological cardiac remodelling, consistent with previous descriptions of athlete's heart, there was no evidence of myocardial fibrosis or exercise left or right ventricular dysfunction or cardiac fibrosis in endurance athletes. Our results are not supporting the hypothesis of deleterious cardiac effects induced by long term and intensive endurance exercise training].
May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review
The positive effects of physical activity are countless, not only on the cardiovascular system but on health in general. However, some studies suggest a U-shape relationship between exercise volume and effects on the cardiovascular system. On the basis of this perspective, moderate-dose exercise...
"May Strenuous Endurance Sports Activity Damage the Cardiovascular System of Healthy Athletes? A Narrative Review" (2022)
[ In conclusion, our review suggests that very intense sports activity may cause reversible electrocardiographic changes, myocardial dysfunction, and troponin elevation with complete recovery within a few days. The theory that repeated bouts of acute stress on the heart may lead to chronic myocardial damage creating a potentially dangerous arrhythmogenic substrate remains to be demonstrated. However, male, middle-aged individuals with a long, athletic career show an increased prevalence of cardiovascular abnormalities such as electrical conduction delay, AF, myocardial LGE, and coronary calcifications compared to non-athletes. However, the cause–effect relationship between such abnormalities and exercise and, most importantly, their prognostic relevance remains to be established. Moreover, evidence of any exercise-related adverse effects on the hearts of female athletes is lacking.
Pending future studies, we believe that when advising athletes about the pros and cons of exercise, we should apply the old Latin aphorism dosis sola facit venenum (“only the dose makes the poison”). There is no doubt that exercise is a medicine, and the recent European Society of Cardiology guidelines emphasized that adapted physical activity is beneficial for all cardiovascular patients, not just healthy individuals [88]. However, an increased number of middle-aged individuals desire to challenge their physical limits by engaging in ultra-endurance sports. We should warn these subjects that such extreme physical activities might damage not only their tendons and joints but also their hearts].
The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress
Abstract. Moderate physical exercise is associated with an irrefutable reduction in cardiac morbidity and mortality. The current guidelines recommend at le
"The heart of the ageing endurance athlete: the role of chronic coronary stress" (2021)
[Conclusion: Regular physical exercise is imperative for the maintenance of optimal health and longevity and should be globally encouraged. There is emerging evidence that a proportion of athletes show high CAC scores, a higher plaque burden and myocardial fibrosis compared with age- and Framingham-matched controls. The mechanism and significance of these findings are unclear. Current limited data find no association between a high CAC score and all-cause mortality in master athletes].
