1st Cycle. Test/HGH/Primo +possible var? Then return to TRT. 16-20 week cycle

[Rido]

One comment only. I would cut on a cycle dosage instead of TRT. Hormones are one of three things that tell your body to retain muscle while "starving." The other two are intense training and high protein.

Just my opinion, of course.

Can you elaborate on it? Like if I went to 200 test and 200 mast? I know it's technically not TRT but a cruise.

 

[malfeasance]

I don't think trt, which is testosterone replacement therapy, assists with retaining muscle when the body thinks it is starving.

There are three signals telling the body to hold on to muscle.

1. High protein
2. Intense training
3. Hormones

If we remove any one of those three signals, then the body is going to shed muscle to survive when it thinks it is starving. Low protein and low calories? Shed muscle. Stop training or back off training and low calories? Shed muscle.

Look at it this way, if one could simply up the protein and train hard, on natty or natty replacement doses, and it worked just as well, then why would bodybuilders risk their health in contest prep with hormones?

I always start my cuts with high testosterone and sometimes even Deca. I pull out hormones thought to cause water retention as late in the process as possible. For testosterone I switch to shorter esters about a month out and may not drop it entirely until a few days out. Deca gets dropped weeks out, obviously. Then its things like tren and superdrol or halo through contest day.

Result?

My strength did not drop at all until maybe 3 weeks out last time. I was still making progress (progressively heavier or more reps) throughout most of the prep. So maybe there is something to this? Or not. I am just relating the experiences of a dumb meathead bodybuilder who was obviously engaging in risky behavior.

But it worked. For me. And biology is biology. The human body will shed anything it can to make itself more efficient to use less calories. When starving, that is going to include muscle unless you force the body to retain it. Whether one can force his body to do that natty or on trt, when trying to hold onto supraphysiological muscle size (that is one big fancy word there I inserted to make it sound like I know what I am talking about), is a question you will have to decide for yourself. It's not like there are any studies out there on comparing high doses of steroids while on a low calorie diet to natty and muscle retention when larger than natty muscles are there to start. Nobody would sanction that kind of study for obvious reasons. But I doubt successful bodybuilders are doing this out of ignorance.

 

[malfeasance]

Can you elaborate on it? Like if I went to 200 test and 200 mast? I know it's technically not TRT but a cruise.

You're right. That's not trt. whether it's enough depends on how much muscle you have to retain. <--- I am not trying to be a smart aleck. Obviously, 80 pounds over natty maximum weight takes a lot more hormones to keep while starving. Being at natty potential or less, then 200/200 test/mast might be enough. I don't know because (a) I don't know where you are on that scale of natty potential, and (b) I was pretty much maxed out natty and was beyond that maximum potential from my first cycle, so I don't have any experience other than being beyond natty on hormones.

 

[T&H]

Being very lean will help you grow and the steroids will work better. I promise.

Please enlighten us how to how being very lean will do what you say above compared to a higher body fat.

 

[malfeasance]

Please enlighten us how to how being very lean will do what you say above compared to a higher body fat.

Have you tried it both ways? I have.

 

[T&H]

Have you tried it both ways? I have.

No. I have seen no scientific literature or understand how the effectiveness of AAS would be based solely on one's body fat. If you have something to back it up, by all means share it but I don't buy this as a matter of fact.

 

[Rido]

You're right. That's not trt. whether it's enough depends on how much muscle you have to retain. <--- I am not trying to be a smart aleck. Obviously, 80 pounds over natty maximum weight takes a lot more hormones to keep while starving. Being at natty potential or less, then 200/200 test/mast might be enough. I don't know because (a) I don't know where you are on that scale of natty potential, and (b) I was pretty much maxed out natty and was beyond that maximum potential from my first cycle, so I don't have any experience other than being beyond natty on hormones.

I would think I had very strong genetic limitations due to my testosterone, I may be wrong. However it's one cycle in and I would assume even 200mg of test solo should be good enough to keep my current muscle up.v

I am still going to add mast and attempt to build mass or atleast maintain on a cruise, not to the same degree as a blast for obvious reasons.

Either way it will be very interesting.

Any thoughts of how much size I lose just by dropping my doses to my cruise level?

 

[malfeasance]

Any thoughts of how much size I lose just by dropping my doses to my cruise level?

I guess I am not communicating my point very well.

The answer to this question was in my prior post, but I will try to make it clearer. I don't know, because I do not know whether you have more size than that level of hormone will support.

If you are not beyond what TRT will support, then even on TRT you ought not to lose anything.

If you are 270 off season and 250 on stage, then you will lose lots and lots of muscle attempting a cut on 100mg a week of testosterone.

I hope that's clearer (but if not, I'll try again).

 

[malfeasance]

No. I have seen no scientific literature or understand how the effectiveness of AAS would be based solely on one's body fat. If you have something to back it up, by all means share it but I don't buy this as a matter of fact.

I thought about posting in response to your first question that I was not aware of any scientific literature - but it seems that you are already aware of that.

So I have gone off experience, mine and others.

This is the same way I know that I grow more on 1200mg testosterone a week than I do on 200mg. I don't know this from scientific literature.

If my experience is not enough for you (and I am not suggesting that it should be), then do the experiment yourself. That is basically what I was suggesting.

We do know, however, and there is plenty of scientific literature on this, that higher body fat means higher enzymes that metabolize testosterone.

We also know that higher body fat means higher cardiac stress.

But everybody I know of who has competed finds some of their best gains after competition, and I have personally found that everything works better coming off that lean state.

If you don't buy it as a fact, I am not trying to sell it, but I would encourage you to try it out for yourself and see whether your experience is different. As of now I am unaware of anybody who has had a different experience from mine (although this post might bring them out of the woodwork, who knows).

 

[Rido]

I did wind up getting shingles but continued to lift at home. I believe it was part of the cycle and the stress upon my body.

So I am going to grab one more DEXA scan before I end my cycle. I am planning on doing it within a month. I am also deciding not to run mast on my break and will let my body recover(Ill keep 2-3iu of HGH, havent decided).


Obviously my fat wont change from me stopping the cycle but my Fat free mass will. I will attribute any loss of FFM after a month of any water retention. I am honestly looking forward to getting off cycle and on a TRT/Cruise and being able to relax a bit. I will also start my cut.

I did get a script for semaglutide which I will start soon to help with weight loss.

 

[malfeasance]

Ugh. Shingles sucks. I have never had it (not even sure I had chicken pox as a kid), but I have seen its effects in others.

 

[supremedonkey]

I thought about posting in response to your first question that I was not aware of any scientific literature - but it seems that you are already aware of that.

So I have gone off experience, mine and others.

This is the same way I know that I grow more on 1200mg testosterone a week than I do on 200mg. I don't know this from scientific literature.

If my experience is not enough for you (and I am not suggesting that it should be), then do the experiment yourself. That is basically what I was suggesting.

We do know, however, and there is plenty of scientific literature on this, that higher body fat means higher enzymes that metabolize testosterone.

We also know that higher body fat means higher cardiac stress.

But everybody I know of who has competed finds some of their best gains after competition, and I have personally found that everything works better coming off that lean state.

If you don't buy it as a fact, I am not trying to sell it, but I would encourage you to try it out for yourself and see whether your experience is different. As of now I am unaware of anybody who has had a different experience from mine (although this post might bring them out of the woodwork, who knows).

It's called priming and I think it's fairly common knowledge. I know you said the same thing. I'm sure we could find some research that indirectly proves it like better insulin sensitivity etc.

 

[Rido]

Ugh. Shingles sucks. I have never had it (not even sure I had chicken pox as a kid), but I have seen its effects in others.

I decided to stop the cycle this week. I am happy with my results and feel like I just need to wash away the stress on my body. I will drop down to 180 test and 100 mast. split into 3 doses a week.(I will probably just keep the mast on Monday/Friday(50 each).


I will reach out to another thread on what HGH dose is worth keeping for cruise dosing input, obviously goal is for fat loss on a cruise

 

[Rido]

I appreciate everyone's input. @malfeasance @Pineapples4Puss @DoritoBod


So this cycle did not go anywhere as planned originally but I did learn alot. I only gave myself 180mg of TEST C and 100-120mg of mast E this week.

I did a 13 week run instead of a 16 week run.
I can handle 600mg of test with no AI. I think next cycle I will run 400-500.
I really like mast so and the dryness it gives, although I did like primo better aesthetically. I will probably run 400 of mast
I cant handle up to 6 iu of hgh comfortably.
Primo kills my libido, but I felt it helped control my appetite. Next run I will pass on the HCG.

my preference of orals are anavar/anadrol for sure. The power of anadrol was definitely fun but anavar felt consistent and rough on my body. I don't care for bloating. My labs also stayed top better with test/mast/var/hgh. Probably from the e2 increase.


I could feel the stress on my mind/body at 11 weeks for sure. I am happy for my gains but clearly it didnt enough stress to activate shingles. I hope I can handle a longer cycle next time, but I will read my body

I think next cycle I will run possibly 12-16 weeks
400 test C/
400 Mast E/
50mg of anavar(split)/ 6 IU of HGH

I did consider throwing 200mg of DECA in there but I will see how this goes.

Ancillaries:
Carnitine 600mg daily IM
40mg of telmisartan
81mg of aspirin if my platelets are still elevated.
30 preg
25mg dhea
vit d3 8-10,000 iu
multi
100mcg of t4.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

I appreciate everyone's input. @malfeasance @Pineapples4Puss @DoritoBod


So this cycle did not go anywhere as planned originally but I did learn alot. I only gave myself 180mg of TEST C and 100-120mg of mast E this week.

I did a 13 week run instead of a 16 week run.
I can handle 600mg of test with no AI. I think next cycle I will run 400-500.
I really like mast so and the dryness it gives, although I did like primo better aesthetically. I will probably run 400 of mast
I cant handle up to 6 iu of hgh comfortably.
Primo kills my libido, but I felt it helped control my appetite. Next run I will pass on the HCG.

my preference of orals are anavar/anadrol for sure. The power of anadrol was definitely fun but anavar felt consistent and rough on my body. I don't care for bloating. My labs also stayed top better with test/mast/var/hgh. Probably from the e2 increase.


I could feel the stress on my mind/body at 11 weeks for sure. I am happy for my gains but clearly it didnt enough stress to activate shingles. I hope I can handle a longer cycle next time, but I will read my body

I think next cycle I will run possibly 12-16 weeks
400 test C/
400 Mast E/
50mg of anavar(split)/ 6 IU of HGH

I did consider throwing 200mg of DECA in there but I will see how this goes.

Ancillaries:
Carnitine 600mg daily IM
40mg of telmisartan
81mg of aspirin if my platelets are still elevated.
30 preg
25mg dhea
vit d3 8-10,000 iu
multi
100mcg of t4.

Happy to help mang. Glad you got something out of it.

It’s weird I was able to do 500 mg test E and 35 mg dbol a day when my first cycle. Now I’m on 400 test and my nips have been killing me.

12.5 mg asin cleared it right up. I’m noticeably fatter since I was 19 though…


How did you like the t4? I’ve been wanting to experiment but far from needing it.


If you do throw deca in you’ll love it if you don’t get mental sides. I did NPP to drop it quickly around 5 weeks the mental sides smacked me in the face at only 375 mg a day. NPP mast and test was a wild feeling while lifting.

Dick was also numb yet hard 24/7. I could fuck for hours and orgasm were nuts.


Sadly I just got food poisoning last weekend and haven’t stepped into the gym in about 5 days. My body was destroyed. I’m really annoyed but decided to take a week off and regroup. I’m finally able to put some food and water down comfortably again lol.

 

[Rido]

How did you like the t4? I’ve been wanting to experiment but far from needing it.


If you do throw deca in you’ll love it if you don’t get mental sides. I did NPP to drop it quickly around 5 weeks the mental sides smacked me in the face at only 375 mg a day. NPP mast and test was a wild feeling while lifting.

Dick was also numb yet hard 24/7. I could fuck for hours and orgasm were nuts.


Sadly I just got food poisoning last weekend and haven’t stepped into the gym in about 5 days. My body was destroyed. I’m really annoyed but decided to take a week off and regroup. I’m finally able to put some food and water down comfortably again lol.

I still never got my t4 levels within a normal range. thats why I went up to 150mcg from 100

now hearing the dick numb is making me shy away from it lol. were you doing DECA once a week? I was wondering if mental sides would be seen if you split the dosing up as if it was NPP. but keeping it more stable like Test C vs Test P


I felt that way with shingles... I had a home gym though to keep up some level of activity.

 

[Rido]

I'll post my post cycle labs next week but so far I only lost 5 lbs. It has been 3 weeks since my last injection from my blast. I'll get labs on Monday.

I also feel like I have minimal strength loss and today I feel phenomenal. While my cycle was all over the place I'm glad I did what I did.

 

[Rido]

Last Post for this thread unless people have questions. post cycle labs. it has been 24 days from this and my last blast injections. Running 180 T and 120 Mast a week. I guess it takes a bit for my e2 to normalize. Labs look solid to me.

 

[Fella]

I don't think trt, which is testosterone replacement therapy, assists with retaining muscle when the body thinks it is starving...

Yes Sir and I would assume it should make sense if you think about it a minute. TRT is basically being natural although at the same time kinda fake one (let's call it half natty lol) because you have have (at least) that one advantage, not having to worry about your own hormonal system crashing when you get down nasty bf levels. So technically you should be able to potentially retain a bit more lean contractile tissue but depending on where that trt dose brings you it may not be all that much.

 

[Rido]

Yes Sir and I would assume it should make sense if you think about it a minute. TRT is basically being natural although at the same time kinda fake one (let's call it half natty lol) because you have have (at least) that one advantage, not having to worry about your own hormonal system crashing when you get down nasty bf levels. So technically you should be able to potentially retain a bit more lean contractile tissue but depending on where that trt dose brings you it may not be all that much.

Contractile tissue...