2-on/4-off cycles...BR, Dr Scally

[Bill Roberts]

Not really. I think the same principles still apply.

But certainly it's possible to push harder for a 2 week period than is possible for very many weeks straight.

It's not necessary for the training in a 2 week cycle to differ from training during a longer steroid cycle. If desired though it can be somewhat more intensive.

 

[Bob Smith]

Bill, in the original articles you listed the desired anti-es as cytadren and clomid. Is that still your recommended anti-e protocol? It seems like arimidex (0.25-0.5mg/day) would be a more effective choice than cytadren.

 

[OhNoYo]

Bill, in the original articles you listed the desired anti-es as cytadren and clomid. Is that still your recommended anti-e protocol? It seems like arimidex (0.25-0.5mg/day) would be a more effective choice than cytadren.

I understand that I am not Mr. Roberts but IMO Cytadren should be avoided in terms of any OFF or ON cycle for bodybuilders, period.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Yes, that is dated information. The article in question was written more than 10 years ago.

That is not to say the method given doesn't work or that it has adverse side effects, but it isn't the most effective method. The amount of antiaromatase activity that Cytadren can give at non-problematic dosages is rather limited.

Actually, I ought to go update that, and will.

 

[OhNoYo]

Yes, that is dated information. The article in question was written more than 10 years ago.

That is not to say the method given doesn't work or that it has adverse side effects, but it isn't the most effective method. The amount of antiaromatase activity that Cytadren can give at non-problematic dosages is rather limited.

Actually, I ought to go update that, and will.

Mr. Roberts, IMO it should be an extreme compliment that individuals do still take your words to heart in regards to certain protocols you wrote about 10years+ since you are an expert in the field to say the least! It only seems as if yesterday ppl were recommending BOTH Cytadren and Teslac to be used OFF & ON cycle. Though when research comes to light that directly & indirectly influence AAS protocols, it assists everyone in the community.

 

[Bob Smith]

Yes, that is dated information. The article in question was written more than 10 years ago.
...
Actually, I ought to go update that, and will.

Id love to see an updated article with your current thinking/recommendations, and maybe some more anecdotal feedback/results from people you've worked with.

 

[jackiebigmur]

Well, for those reasons I didn't recommend it that way, and still don't.

The correct method is to use short acting compounds, for example trenbolone acetate and Dianabol. Recovery is within days or even with no perceived period of doing at all poorly.

And also doses used are sufficient to give results in even this short time. Frontloading is also employed so that levels are effectively high almost from the very beginning, rather than having to wait a couple of weeks to build up.

would you reccomend that this be taken once per day in the morning or spread out thru the day?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Dianabol is I think best divided across the day.

With trenbolone acetate, time of day can simply be what is most convenient and is ordinarily once a day.

 

[jackiebigmur]

Dianabol is I think best divided across the day.

With trenbolone acetate, time of day can simply be what is most convenient and is ordinarily once a day.

I'm going to try your 2 weeks on and 4 off program with dianabol and var in moderate doses with clomid for pct. I am concerned about suppression so I was thinking about morning only - do you think this would make a difference?

 

[Bill Roberts]

You could do it but you would be cutting results well back for the sake of avoiding a non-problem. I haven't known of one person yet who had recovery problems with the 2 week cycles. The suppression during that period really isn't something to fear.

 

[jackiebigmur]

ok- thank you very much for the information.

 

[Bob Smith]

Bill,

For someone below their genetic limit, what would you expect in terms of LBM and strength during 4 off weeks? Would the expectation be to just maintain?

Also, is there a limit to how much AAS could/should be used during the 2 on weeks?

 

[Bob Smith]

ED injections suck ass. What are some things that could be done EOD or every 3rd day? In one of the original Q&A from years ago, an idea of using a longer acting test on day 1 was proposed. Would it be effective to run an equal amount of enth in the early days as would normally be run with prop for all 14 days, eg. total ED prop is 1400mg (100mg x 14) vs 1400 enth (all on days 1-3). Would that cause inhibition moreso than the standard protocol?

 

[Bill Roberts]

It's not as good because to achieve non-suppressive levels on day 15 while using a medium-acting ester, levels must be very compomised in week 2.

It's one thing to have reduced effect in the last week of say a 10 week cycle, but having considerably reduced effect in the first half of the second week, and greatly reduced to zero effect in the later half of that week, is a very big sacrifice for a 2 week cycle.

Every day injection is easy when using insulin needles IM. It's easier than injecting 3 mL per 3 days with a 23 gauge.

 

[xXGetBigSonXx]

Great info guys! Im planning to run short cycyle myself - mainly because I dont like running a 12 week cycle then having a long recovery time before being able to start back up again. Having multiple cycles like the 2/4 sounds like it may be what I am looking for... Just had a couple quick questions to clarify some things..

Im looking at running Test Ace to start off... ED injectons are more advisable then EOD? And what type of mg per week is best (I have never ran TA before) I heard TA is least painful then Prop (for some reason prop is very painful for me)

Last question: Only running 2 weeks on and 4 weeks off - this doesnt require any pct correct?

Thanks guys!

 

[Bill Roberts]

The no-PCT approach does work but it isn't preferred because recovery of natural T is slower without Clomid. But recovery is usually not really that slow or problematic when it is omitted. Maybe a bigger advantage of the Clomid is that, testicle-wise, it fully makes up for being "on" one-third or (with two week off periods) half the time.

 

[xXGetBigSonXx]

The no-PCT approach does work but it isn't preferred because recovery of natural T is slower without Clomid. But recovery is usually not really that slow or problematic when it is omitted. Maybe a bigger advantage of the Clomid is that, testicle-wise, it fully makes up for being "on" one-third or (with two week off periods) half the time.

What would a proper pct (w/clomid) look like on a 2 week on, 4 week off cycle?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Day 1 of the off period: 300 mg
Thereafter 50 mg/day for 2-4 weeks.

The theory behind going 4 weeks, which is more than needed for recovery, is having extra weeks of probably-unusually-high LH to compensate for the 2 weeks of no LH, in terms of testicular size. It can actually overcompensate: 2 on / 4 off done that way can give an increase over baseline in testicular size in at least some instances.

However, if talking about a very long term basis I wouldn't use Clomid 2/3 of the time and would drop it down to no more than 2 weeks of use.

I expect it would also be satisfactory to continue the 50 mg/day use for only one week but I never wrote that as a protocol for anyone and so don't have any outcomes on how that may work. But I would expect it to be a quite acceptable protocol. It would take quite a number of cycles, probably at least 6 months' worth, to determine whether there would be slow and slight loss of testicular size from that, or not. It couldn't immediately be determined.

 

[xXGetBigSonXx]

Day 1 of the off period: 300 mg
Thereafter 50 mg/day for 2-4 weeks.

The theory behind going 4 weeks, which is more than needed for recovery, is having extra weeks of probably-unusually-high LH to compensate for the 2 weeks of no LH, in terms of testicular size. It can actually overcompensate: 2 on / 4 off done that way can give an increase over baseline in testicular size in at least some instances.

However, if talking about a very long term basis I wouldn't use Clomid 2/3 of the time and would drop it down to no more than 2 weeks of use.

I expect it would also be satisfactory to continue the 50 mg/day use for only one week but I never wrote that as a protocol for anyone and so don't have any outcomes on how that may work. But I would expect it to be a quite acceptable protocol. It would take quite a number of cycles, probably at least 6 months' worth, to determine whether there would be slow and slight loss of testicular size from that, or not. It couldn't immediately be determined.

Thanks Bill!

Would administration of clomid comense 2-3 days after last pin?

I will be planning on running this 2/4 cycle plan for an extended period of time, you said you wouldnt use clomid 2/3 of the time.. would that mean you would use a different substance or none at all..
just trying to get a gauge on what you would do personally... thanks again

 

[xXGetBigSonXx]

Bill,
You also suggested to use Slim Pins if pinning ED... CEM MES only offers 0.5in needles... would this work or is this too short?