2-on/4-off cycles...BR, Dr Scally

[Bill Roberts]

Yes, I'm very well aware of how severely nandrolone shuts down the htpa, however as someone with interest in nadrolone, despite its problems with recovery, I'm wondering if you have any advice with regard to a pct protocol for nandrolone, especially a longer cycle with it attached to decanoate ester. I was thinking about a normal 4 week pct cycle of clomid alongside exemstane and 15k iu of hcg prior to pct, also a very small dosage of ostarine (~10mg/day) to help with strength loss and muscle retention. I know excessive levels of clomid can be suppressive, and I've read studies regarding the carcinogenic potential of serms so I don't particularly want to over-do it but at the same time nandrolone is extremely suppressive and wish to have a full recovery so any advice or input would be greatly appreciated!

I'm afraid I really don't have an idea: I just don't know of a way to counteract the increased suppressive properties of nandrolone.

While I'm not saying it is the same thing, perhaps it is analogous to what is seen sometimes with birth control in women. For example my wife says it took her 9 months to recover from the time that she tried it.

But in any case, I don't know how to counteract it, unfortunately.

About all I can contribute is that increasing SERM dosage does not help.

 

[Reymak]

Hey, real quick; what are your thoughts about using Tren. Enanthate (TE) for a 2-on/4-off cycle?

The reduced number of injections are a bonus, but money (i.e., cost of TE is less than TA) is the real reason behind me asking.

Say, EOD injects. instead of ED injects (or less frequently?).

Also, if using TA, Test. Prop. is preferred (both short esters) as part of the stack; but what Test. should be used with TE (if TE should even be used)?

Should PCT begin a couple days following cessation of the Tren./Test.?

Damn, in my head it seemed like a short question...

Thanks.

 

[Bill Roberts]

I don't know of any cases of trenbolone enanthate being used in a 2-week cycle. But I don't think it would be very suitable.

As a rough guess, I'd say levels need to drop to being commensurate with ongoing use of no more than 70 mg/week of trenbolone enanthate and really preferably less than this.

If quitting use a full 10 days before the end of the cycle -- so only four days of injecting! -- then I would put a top end to usage at only four times that (since there will be two half-lives for levels to drop.)

So as an estimate, maybe trenbolone enanthate could be used at the 280 mg/week level for four days. Not a worthless level for 4 days, but then dropping to marginal level over the next several days, and the last 5-7days or so of the cycle would be in the pretty-much-nowhere ground of neither being high enough to do much for gains, nor low enough to allow recovery.

For cycle lengths such as 8 weeks, it's not a major problem that there will be a week or so in this inbetween area. It doesn't make up a major percentage of the cycle.

But for a 2 week cycle, one really wants almost every day of the cycle to have productive levels.

It wouldn't be unreasonable, if one had it on hand, to frontload a 2 week cycle with a couple of hundred mg of trenbolone enanthate on the first day. Simply out of having it on hand anyway. But it doesn't seem a suitable candidate as the injectable base of a cycle.

 

[Reymak]

Wondering... .

When would be the best time to implement the 2-On period during an HST cycle?

Considering that it's an eight-week HST cycle, two weeks of... 15/10/5/5 (increased weight 2nd round of 5s).

TIA

 

[Reymak]

...Bump... BR? Anyone?

 

[spiderduncan]

Directly from the HST forum regarding HST while incorporating 2 on 4 off cycles.

 

[Reymak]

I completely dumped my routine about 1.5 months ago, went with basic compound movements and am using HST methods (I'm currently in HST week #5).

I also revamped my diet, added more protein, and began carb. cycling.

*I'm currently in week #2 of a 2-On/5-Off cycle (adjusted for the HST schedule) of ~60mg Tren A, ~60mg Test P, 40mg DBol ED.
(PCT: Clo & Nolva & Aromasin, for the 2-Weeks immediately following.)

I really started to notice the affects as the second week began, but now it's Wed. and I'm gonna wrap-up this Sun.
I can't help but wonder whether a 4-On/?-Off cycle would be better, i.e., just as the ball gets rolling, I wouldn't be stopping the momentum, but it'd still be a short cycle, so as to minimize the period of time of inhibition.

I've read that some do indeed do 4-On/?-Off; does the PCT last four weeks? Should the dosages remain the same, simply extending the period from two to four weeks?

Also, can injections be EOD (just double the ED dosing)? I don't really mind the injections, it's the ache/knot that usually comes on shortly thereafter that's starting to get to me this week. (I know, wah, wah.)

*Note: I front-loaded a double does of Tren A and Test P on the first day.

 

[ddp7]

You continue to ignore the questions I've asked over the last few posts. Why don't you try answering a couple of them?

You've pointed out that the studies I referenced are not in the exact population we're talking about. I recognize that. The studies I posted are in males, but not steroid-recovering males. But then you appeal to female physiology, which is undoubtedly an even less relevant population. Accordingly, why would you imply female physiology and estrogen priming when the more relevant research suggests the exact opposite? Are you seriously going to argue that the research in males is less relevant?

I took the time to carefully read the discussion you had with Roberts. It seems that you were asking yourself the implicit question that Bill Roberts, let us glimpse. It looks like this. It is discussed whether or not tamoxifen is more sensitive to GnRH because of estrogenic structure. Bill implicitly states that if there is the phenomena estrogen priming in men there then they would suggest the use of tamoxifen and clomid simultaneously. But you criticize that phenomenon does not exist in men. Then, another question implicit here, is that, in itself, using sports drugs is an existential condition with a "female tendency" because natural male hormones are eliminated...so to speak. Otherwise Bill would only recommend tamoxifen. If there is only tamoxifen there would be only a genitalized sexuality (vulgarly associated with sodomite behaviors, although the Taoist behaviors follow quite this "genitalized" line but not extremely, that is , the Taoists exert some control of sexuality as modern authors like Wilhem Reich).

Correct me if I have made a mistake.

 

[BBC3]

Regarding your PM. I am not sure what "E2 Priming" is specifically as you reference. Perhaps you could educate me.?

I dont think BRoberts is active right now. This is an old thread. May have some good info of course.

Conciliator (AKA - Jackass Jr.) has not been here in a long time either...

I know you can run both SERMS together and some do for PCT. I think...

I took the time to carefully read the discussion you had with Roberts. It seems that you were asking yourself the implicit question that Bill Roberts, let us glimpse. It looks like this. It is discussed whether or not tamoxifen is more sensitive to GnRH because of estrogenic structure. Bill implicitly states that if there is the phenomena estrogen priming in men there then they would suggest the use of tamoxifen and clomid simultaneously. But you criticize that phenomenon does not exist in men. Then, another question implicit here, is that, in itself, using sports drugs is an existential condition with a "female tendency" because natural male hormones are eliminated...so to speak. Otherwise Bill would only recommend tamoxifen. If there is only tamoxifen there would be only a genitalized sexuality (vulgarly associated with sodomite behaviors, although the Taoist behaviors follow quite this "genitalized" line but not extremely, that is , the Taoists exert some control of sexuality as modern authors like Wilhem Reich).

Correct me if I have made a mistake.

 

[ddp7]

Regarding your PM. I am not sure what "E2 Priming" is specifically as you reference. Perhaps you could educate me.?

I dont think BRoberts is active right now. This is an old thread. May have some good info of course.

Conciliator (AKA - Jackass Jr.) has not been here in a long time either...

I know you can run both SERMS together and some do for PCT. I think...

Ok, your response is appreciated. I did not intend to publish this discussion basically because it is epistemologically wrong, so to speak. The social phenomena that permeate science (with greater intensity therefore to broscience) must be explicit to make good science. Today this is an imperative that distinguishes the science of quality. From my point of view you seem to be distinguished by your honest appreciations of the experience with sports drugs (as I like to call them).

I have read some of your appreciations regarding your preference for clomiphene and your dislike for tamoxifen.

Now, you can rest easy because I do not intend to use you to justify anything.

The reason I revived this old thread is because, if I remember rightly, a dr from this forum, I suggested revising my estrogen values and about it, review as an annexed topic of interest and not of necessity, the debate that here is raised with respect to the theory of the primacy of estrogen. In any case, the summary of three lines that I send you is in detail expanded in the answer I gave in this thread.

My particular doubts implicit is to understand the reason that the argumentative structures of both debatients are so extreme and fearful and recur and fall into enough argumentative fallacies, if my English has not failed me.

As an annex and final data, which might interest you, I would like to indicate that central american forums composed of people of modest class love tamoxifen, while the opposite is possible to observe in forums of upper middle class of spain.

I hope I was clear.

 

[BBC3]

You WERE. And nice trolling advert on the other site.!!! I be sure and Be sure to give it a peek...

(Somehow I gather you Engrish is just fine... lol

FYI - I ALWAYz publish responses to PMs. After all - that's ho we LEARN..

And NO - I have never once expressed any preference for one SERM over another. (But I did tell Conci I would make sure he got that red bycicle he wanting so bad for Xmas!!!)

Perhaps your Translater is working great and it's simply your Encoder which is having a smack..?!? ???

All good as you seem very knowledgeable. I will take that for what it is worth and leave the rest.

Good thingz!!!

 

[ddp7]

You WERE. And nice trolling advert on the other site.!!! I be sure and Be sure to give it a peek...

(Somehow I gather you Engrish is just fine... lol

FYI - I ALWAYz publish responses to PMs. After all - that's ho we LEARN..

And NO - I have never once expressed any preference for one SERM over another. (But I did tell Conci I would make sure he got that red bycicle he wanting so bad for Xmas!!!)

Perhaps your Translater is working great and it's simply your Encoder which is having a smack..?!? ???

All good as you seem very knowledgeable. I will take that for what it is worth and leave the rest.

Good thingz!!!

Amigo,

Realmente tu no eres relevante para esta explicacion.

Lamento si esto te trae "cybercomplicaciones".

A mi realmente lo que preocupa en terminos practicos es el contraste entre los metodos del Dr Scally y el foro musclecoop ( because). El foro tu pincho no lo mencionare(cuz) porque seria una perdida de tiempo.

Si quieres colaborar explicame el significadoo de la expresion "scared the shit out of me" .

Thank you.

 

[ddp7]

Eh? Not clear on what you are saying here, BBC. You on or off or tapering or what?

Solo

Sorry, only saying that I am thinking about discontinuing test cyp with no pct, by using a taper down method as I have in the past. As for PCT, I feel not necessary for test only cycles, with exception of a little hcg, always to blow up the boys. nolva scares the crap out of me. clomid would be my choice if I had to choose between those two drugs....

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solo47 Well-Known Member

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jmills Member

LifeSize Junior Member

solo47 Well-Known Member

crazy to think people never did pct period back in the day.

LifeSize Junior Member

Even the idea of cycling off & on is a fairly recent response to the realization that long-term use can shut one's own HPTA down permanently. (So once you've been on a long time, why come off? )

Solo

Fraggle Junior Member

lol.. is it bad that I think that's ok? who cares if i can produce 80mg a week, when I can put 750mg myself, and cheap too! lol..

~OMEGA~ Junior Member

solo47 Well-Known Member

lol.. is it bad that I think that's ok? who cares if i can produce 80mg a week, when I can put 750mg myself, and cheap too! lol..

761USD Junior Member

~OMEGA~ Junior Member

LifeSize Junior Member

LS, staying "on" at those levels for long time means you are putting your body on artificial life support, or at least on artificial masculinity support. If things change socially, personally, economically and you must come off after a long time on, you will find yourself a depressed eunuch . Plus staying long term th l l t l t Click to expand...

BBC3 Well-Known Member

solo47 Well-Known Member

Taper down is always a good idea to AVoid pct. Consider your half lives. I am thinking about trying to prove I can go back on line myself.. BUT WHY???. I was at 300 and why I started. Then I laugh and cry at the same time cuase I am just not sure what I am in for. But I know it is better than my fathers prostate cancers/Click to expand...

761USD Junior Member

1 mg?

NO it wont do much

you need about 10 mg 3 times a week for a low aromatizable cycle

and more like 20 mgs 3 times a week if you doing things like Dbol, with Test etc Click to expand...

solo47 Well-Known Member

Thanks. I didn't think so. What about the 11mg of Tamoxifan? Good enough or need more than 11g and how many days a week?

BBC3 Well-Known Member

Eh? Not clear on what you are saying here, BBC. You on or off or tapering or what?
Sorry, only saying that I am thinking about discontinuing test cyp with no pct, by using a taper down method as I have in the past. As for PCT, I feel not necessary for test only cycles, with exception of a little hcg, always to blow up the boys. nolva scares the crap out of me. clomid would be my choice if I had to choose between those two drugs...

Source:

Aromasin PCT?

@Michael Scally MD @Dr JIM @Nicolaus @CdnGuy @gr8whitetrukker @BBC3

 

[ddp7]

Sorry,the relevant part is in the end.

Thank you.

 

[BBC3]

@ddp007
Now I have heard Amasm/examstane to be a really good AI in that the terminal effect in enzymes as "suicide inhibitor" may actually Better to use and more controllable than standard AI's and BECAUSE of the definite nature of its action.

 

[ddp7]

@ddp007
Now I have heard Amasm/examstane to be a really good AI in that the terminal effect in enzymes as "suicide inhibitor" may actually Better to use and more controllable than standard AI's and BECAUSE of the definite nature of its action.

Ok. Again, thank you for your cooperation.