I agree with the tenor of these comments and accept that TRT is a medical term. This is the primary reason that I avoid labeling my experiment as TRT. And, yes, the effects of Tren are different from those of Test, that is the reason the experiment was undertaken.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
a long term unconventional HRT/TRT regimen with tren and test
- Thread starter foreveryoung
- Start date
I agree with the tenor of these comments and accept that TRT is a medical term. This is the primary reason that I avoid labeling my experiment as TRT. And, yes, the effects of Tren are different from those of Test, that is the reason the experiment was undertaken.
Just an update here. I've received your messages and we both agree that it's in the best interest of MESO members to leave your messages intact. I'd still like to convince you to stick around. I've always enjoyed your contributions and you are always welcome here at MESO.
I respectfully disagree that the decision to move a discussion to a different forum reflects any type of "scientific censorship."
I, for one, am very interested in hearing about your "long term unconventional HRT/TRT regimen with tren and test." And I hope to hear more about it. The use of tren for HRT is a topic that has been raised by legitimate academic researchers. I have raised it myself in an article I wrote for MESO here - Trenbolone for Androgen Replacement Therapy
Please make no mistake - your freedom to discuss this has not been restricted in any way whatsoever. This is one of the most open forums for exploring topics related to AAS and PEDs.
Given that this forum provides the freedom to discuss practically every conceivable use of AAS in every conceivable manner, there is a particularly strong need to strongly differentiate between the medical use of AAS and the non-medical use of AAS. This is reflected in the moderator decisions when it comes to the "Men's Health Forum" (medical use only) and the "Steroid Forum" (non-medical use).
The medical vs non-medical distinction doesn't even fall along healthy vs. unhealthy lines as far as I'm concerned.
I make no judgments on anyone's preferred use of AAS. Truth be told, many people who use AAS for medical purposes live a particularly unhealthy lifestyle whereas many non-medical AAS pay very close attention to health.
My reason for stating this is to make it clear that the decision to move your thread is not a judgment on your health goals or objectives.
Nonetheless, I support Dr. Scally's decision to move the thread. It is not as a judgment on you nor is it a form of censorship. It is simply an attempt to make a clear distinction between the medical and non-medical use of AAS, nothing more
When it comes to trenbolone, doctors have gone to jail for prescribing it in a manner consistent with an HRT protocol that you proposed. Also, owners of compounding pharmacies have been convicted in large part due to the distribution of non-FDA approved AAS including tren.
Consequently, tren, at this point and time, can't be considered an accepted form of HRT or accepted treatment for anything else.
Who knows what the future might bring? SARMs might become a medically-accepted alternative to testosterone and TRT. Or some other synthetic hormone may gain FDA acceptance.
But for now, MESO must do its best to separate medical vs. non-medical.
Having said that, I hope you reconsider your position. MESO is better with your contributions.
Three pages in we have established that Tren is not Test, and I agree. However, neither are Arimidex or HCG, yet they are in widespread use as an adjunct to TRT. (Although acceptance in the medical community runs the gamut). My curiosity about including low dose tren is in regards to skewing the androgenic/anabolic ratio resulting in possibly maintaining a better body composition without androgenic sides. I can understand this is controversial but worth discussion.
wes_mantooth
New Member
Agree. I'd like to know more about it.
Differentiating TRT is relatively simple.
The effects of the drugs used in conventional medicine either directly, thru testosterone supplementation, or indirectly thru the use of adjunctive therapies such as HCG and SERMS (which increase endogenous production) ultimately result in elevation of previously suppressed testosterone levels.
This concept is not that difficult to comprehend or it is!
jim
The effects of the drugs used in conventional medicine either directly, thru testosterone supplementation, or indirectly thru the use of adjunctive therapies such as HCG and SERMS (which increase endogenous production) ultimately result in elevation of previously suppressed testosterone levels.
This concept is not that difficult to comprehend or it is!
jim
Fair enough, but an important distinction is that most guys consider restoration of youthful testosterone levels as a means to an end and not the ultimate goal itself. The ultimate goal for these guys is youthful androgenic and anabolic action. Some are realizing that the combination of compounds at low levels may present the best opportunity to achieve this goal with the least amount of health compromises.
This concept, likewise, either lands softly on the open mind, or not.
Oh don't get me wrong here, I'm all for optimizing one androgenic/anabolic capabilities, but pursuing and/or achieving that goal (Example; I'm 40 and want to "feel and/or look like I'm twenty") one will invariably encounter the fine line between TRT and cycling even if testosterone is the only AAS being used.
I believe the distinction is important and germane for a variety of reasons some of which have already been eluded to earlier on this thread alone. A very important distinction is genuine TRT will NOT require PCT for the majority.
Now you may ask why is that important since many are legitimate TRT patients and ergo PCT is irrelevant, NOT.
Why?
Because look around, I have NO doubt many of those interested in this thread, especially the non-members "spectators", noobs, novices or neophytes are concocting their own optimal Anabolic/Androgenic means to an ends also. It goes something like this:....... low dose AAS don't require PCT because it's TRT, NOT, NOT !!!
(Also realize very few of these browsers will possess FY's fund of knowledge!)
Consequently the emphasis on nomenclature or "semantics" has been a notable feature of this thread deliberately (IMO) because once endogenously produced testosterone is substituted with another anabolic agent especially one as potent as Tren, normal pituitary responsiveness to endogenous produced secretologues or hormones will be decreased significantly (depending upon which anabolic is used)
This has already been demonstrated with Deca studies whereupon a single FIFTY MILLIGRAM dose will flatten LH production for up to THREE MONTHS!
Ergo, I'm all for altering AAS compounds to benefit patients and or BB, but again I believe it material to maintain the distinction between conventional TRT for "low T",
individualized AAS therapy, and cycling.
JIM
I believe the distinction is important and germane for a variety of reasons some of which have already been eluded to earlier on this thread alone. A very important distinction is genuine TRT will NOT require PCT for the majority.
Now you may ask why is that important since many are legitimate TRT patients and ergo PCT is irrelevant, NOT.
Why?
Because look around, I have NO doubt many of those interested in this thread, especially the non-members "spectators", noobs, novices or neophytes are concocting their own optimal Anabolic/Androgenic means to an ends also. It goes something like this:....... low dose AAS don't require PCT because it's TRT, NOT, NOT !!!
(Also realize very few of these browsers will possess FY's fund of knowledge!)
Consequently the emphasis on nomenclature or "semantics" has been a notable feature of this thread deliberately (IMO) because once endogenously produced testosterone is substituted with another anabolic agent especially one as potent as Tren, normal pituitary responsiveness to endogenous produced secretologues or hormones will be decreased significantly (depending upon which anabolic is used)
This has already been demonstrated with Deca studies whereupon a single FIFTY MILLIGRAM dose will flatten LH production for up to THREE MONTHS!
Ergo, I'm all for altering AAS compounds to benefit patients and or BB, but again I believe it material to maintain the distinction between conventional TRT for "low T",
individualized AAS therapy, and cycling.
JIM
Mike Oxbig
New Member
That is not the first time I've heard this, but it sounds pretty crazy. Have the cites? I would definitely be interested in looking over the study.
Unfortunately I posted two-three roughly 3 months ago.
Stretch and I were comparing the half life of the parent compound Nandrolone to a few of it's active metabolites, some of which may linger for up to ONE YEAR, which unfortunately may result in HTPA suppression for that long also!
Let me locate the article and get it to you, unless Stretch or myself can remember the thread? However, I'm told Stretch has the memory of an elephant so we are better off relying on him in that regard.
Stretch and I were comparing the half life of the parent compound Nandrolone to a few of it's active metabolites, some of which may linger for up to ONE YEAR, which unfortunately may result in HTPA suppression for that long also!
Let me locate the article and get it to you, unless Stretch or myself can remember the thread? However, I'm told Stretch has the memory of an elephant so we are better off relying on him in that regard.
MO
I located a few 3 of the Deca articles I referenced. PM me an e-mail address and I'll forward them you way. (In case you were unaware the existing Meso format will not allow the re-posts of journal articles)
jim
I located a few 3 of the Deca articles I referenced. PM me an e-mail address and I'll forward them you way. (In case you were unaware the existing Meso format will not allow the re-posts of journal articles)
jim
You should be able to post PDF articles as attachments. What error message do you get?
Nandrolone Esters Nandrolone phenylpropionate
[Some] Trenbolone Background - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134286704
Yarrow JF, McCoy SC, Borst SE. Tissue selectivity and potential clinical applications of trenbolone (17beta-hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one): A potent anabolic steroid with reduced androgenic and estrogenic activity. Steroids 2010;75(6):377-89. Tissue selectivity and potential clinical applicati... [Steroids. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
Recently, the development of selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) has been suggested as a means of combating the deleterious catabolic effects of hypogonadism, especially in skeletal muscle and bone, without inducing the undesirable androgenic effects (e.g., prostate enlargement and polycythemia) associated with testosterone administration. 17beta-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone; 17beta-TBOH), a synthetic analog of testosterone, may be capable of inducing SARM-like effects as it binds to androgen receptors (ARs) with approximately three times the affinity of testosterone and has been shown to augment skeletal muscle mass and bone growth and reduce adiposity in a variety of mammalian species. In addition to its direct actions through ARs, 17beta-TBOH may also exert anabolic effects by altering the action of endogenous growth factors or inhibiting the action of glucocorticoids. Compared to testosterone, 17beta-TBOH appears to induce less growth in androgen-sensitive organs which highly express the 5alpha reductase enzyme (e.g., prostate tissue and accessory sex organs). The reduced androgenic effects result from the fact that 17beta-TBOH is metabolized to less potent androgens in vivo; while testosterone undergoes tissue-specific biotransformation to more potent steroids, dihydrotestosterone and 17beta-estradiol, via the 5alpha-reductase and aromatase enzymes, respectively. Thus the metabolism of 17beta-TBOH provides a basis for future research evaluating its safety and efficacy as a means of combating muscle and bone wasting conditions, obesity, and/or androgen insensitivity syndromes in humans, similar to that of other SARMs which are currently in development.
Yarrow JF, McCoy SC, Borst SE. Tissue selectivity and potential clinical applications of trenbolone (17beta-hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one): A potent anabolic steroid with reduced androgenic and estrogenic activity. Steroids 2010;75(6):377-89. Tissue selectivity and potential clinical applicati... [Steroids. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
Recently, the development of selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs) has been suggested as a means of combating the deleterious catabolic effects of hypogonadism, especially in skeletal muscle and bone, without inducing the undesirable androgenic effects (e.g., prostate enlargement and polycythemia) associated with testosterone administration. 17beta-Hydroxyestra-4,9,11-trien-3-one (trenbolone; 17beta-TBOH), a synthetic analog of testosterone, may be capable of inducing SARM-like effects as it binds to androgen receptors (ARs) with approximately three times the affinity of testosterone and has been shown to augment skeletal muscle mass and bone growth and reduce adiposity in a variety of mammalian species. In addition to its direct actions through ARs, 17beta-TBOH may also exert anabolic effects by altering the action of endogenous growth factors or inhibiting the action of glucocorticoids. Compared to testosterone, 17beta-TBOH appears to induce less growth in androgen-sensitive organs which highly express the 5alpha reductase enzyme (e.g., prostate tissue and accessory sex organs). The reduced androgenic effects result from the fact that 17beta-TBOH is metabolized to less potent androgens in vivo; while testosterone undergoes tissue-specific biotransformation to more potent steroids, dihydrotestosterone and 17beta-estradiol, via the 5alpha-reductase and aromatase enzymes, respectively. Thus the metabolism of 17beta-TBOH provides a basis for future research evaluating its safety and efficacy as a means of combating muscle and bone wasting conditions, obesity, and/or androgen insensitivity syndromes in humans, similar to that of other SARMs which are currently in development.
Millard
There is no error message per say, it reads the article has been posted previously and refers me to that thread,
Thx
There is no error message per say, it reads the article has been posted previously and refers me to that thread,
Thx
angelfriend
New Member
Oh don't get me wrong here, I'm all for optimizing one androgenic/anabolic capabilities, but pursuing and/or achieving that goal (Example; I'm 40 and want to "feel and/or look like I'm twenty") one will invariably encounter the fine line between TRT and cycling even if testosterone is the only AAS being used.
I believe the distinction is important and germane for a variety of reasons some of which have already been eluded to earlier on this thread alone. A very important distinction is genuine TRT will NOT require PCT for the majority.
Now you may ask why is that important since many are legitimate TRT patients and ergo PCT is irrelevant, NOT.
Why?
Because look around, I have NO doubt many of those interested in this thread, especially the non-members "spectators", noobs, novices or neophytes are concocting their own optimal Anabolic/Androgenic means to an ends also. It goes something like this:....... low dose AAS don't require PCT because it's TRT, NOT, NOT !!!
(Also realize very few of these browsers will possess FY's fund of knowledge!)
Consequently the emphasis on nomenclature or "semantics" has been a notable feature of this thread deliberately (IMO) because once endogenously produced testosterone is substituted with another anabolic agent especially one as potent as Tren, normal pituitary responsiveness to endogenous produced secretologues or hormones will be decreased significantly (depending upon which anabolic is used)
This has already been demonstrated with Deca studies whereupon a single FIFTY MILLIGRAM dose will flatten LH production for up to THREE MONTHS!
Ergo, I'm all for altering AAS compounds to benefit patients and or BB, but again I believe it material to maintain the distinction between conventional TRT for "low T",
individualized AAS therapy, and cycling.
JIM
Methyl-testosterone is indicated by the FDA for female hormone replacement therapy. Please explain why trenbolone or any other synthetic androgen cannot be considered medicinal androgen replacement therapy?
Synthetic glucocoritcoids are also used if the patient has a deficiency. Synthetic insulins are used as a form of hormone replacement in type 1 diabetes.
I registered to post this so I would like to here your responses Doctors.
Welcome to Meso AF?
Take another gander at the ENTIRE post, since I'm confident either Dr Scally or myself have already addressed your question/s.
Jim
Take another gander at the ENTIRE post, since I'm confident either Dr Scally or myself have already addressed your question/s.
Jim
Testosterone, glucocorticoids and insulin are all hormone replacement therapies used to replace naturally occurring hormones. Even if they aren't exactly the same they are the closest thing we have with similar function.
Therefore I agree that testosterone replacement is medicinal but tren is not. Lastly, I don't think tren is even FDA approved for humans....isn't it uses in horses?
We're still trying to pound the square peg of tren into the round hole of TRT. Why don't we call it "Blueberry Pie", or even better, "Taking a small amount of tren with our TRT"? I'd guess the bulk of western medicine involves introducing a drug into the system to produce a specific effect. If I have a headache, I take aspirin. If I have an infection, I might take penicillin. If I want to see things with a blue tint, I take Viagra 
. None of these treat an endogenous deficiency. So...."Taking a small amount of tren with our TRT"....good idea/bad idea? Risk vs. reward? No, trenbolone isn't approved for humans though I think this is the first time that consideration has been raised on this particular board .
. None of these treat an endogenous deficiency. So...."Taking a small amount of tren with our TRT"....good idea/bad idea? Risk vs. reward? No, trenbolone isn't approved for humans though I think this is the first time that consideration has been raised on this particular board .
DieYoungStrong
New Member
Deca is crazy. There is a reason why HG Deca comes in 50/100 mg dosing. When people cycling want to use it solely for joint support, a lot don't realize that 100-150mg/week will do the trick for that. 500 mg/week will shut you down For-Ev-Er. If you ran that for 10 weeks, you wouldn't be ready for PCT for at least 6 months (I did no math on this - it could be even longer). It stays in your system forever. Drug tested athletes can fail a test a year after a moderate Deca cycle.
It's a great drug if you're not planning on really coming off - like someone who blasts/cruise all year. If you want to restore HPTA after a Deca run, you're in for a long, bumpy ride - especially if you're over 30.
Or better yet call it cyclical TRT with a little Tren and Mast on the side:drooling:
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