A sober look at HGH

[bananafeet]

I've had some personal experiences using HGH that included getting a relatively high IGF1 level on a low dose (2iu).

However I found it made me prediabetic. It's fair enough that I carry too much bodyfat to ever be called a bodybuilder but I'm not finding any positives with this drug.

Is this just a big circle jerk?

I mean this is from a text book on HGH:

"Growth Hormone Hypersecretion Associated With Meta-
bolic Disturbances. Apparently, inappropriate hGH hypersecre-
tion occurs with uncontrolled diabetes mellitus, hepatic failure,
uremia, anorexia nervosa, and protein-calorie malnutrition. Nutri-
tional factors are probably important in this response because in
normal persons, obesity inhibits and fasting stimulates episodic
GH hypersecretion. In diabetes mellitus, cholinergic blockers
reverse the abnormality, possibly by inhibiting hypothalamic
somatostatin secretion (see earlier discussion). Peripheral GH
resistance leading to reduced IGF1 synthesis and release may also
contribute to increased levels of GH"

Page 163


Page 128

This is the interesting part:

Catabolic States: The anabolic actions of GH have prompted
investigational use of GH in catabolic states, including surgery,
trauma, burns, parenteral nutrition, and organ failure, to reduce
negative nitrogen balance in critically ill patients. Beneficial
effects of GH have been reported in patients with extensive burns,
but there is an increased risk of hyperglycemia. A study in which
critically ill patients received very high doses of GH (up to 7 mg/
day), approximating 15 to 20 times the normal daily production
rates, was prematurely terminated due to increased fatality. It
has been suggested that GH may have had an adverse effect on
acute-phase protein in these patients. Caution is advised for
nonapproved uses of GH in adults.

Page 191

Sports: GH is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency as
a performance-enhancing anabolic agent. GH is widely abused
by athletes to enhance performance. A systematic review
concluded that claims that GH enhances physical performance
are not supported by the scientific literature evaluating effects
on aerobic capacity, strength, and power. A double-blind
placebo-controlled study has reported that GH, in doses
approximating four times the daily production rates, selectively
enhances anaerobic sprint capacity but does not affect aerobic
capacity, strength, or power in recreational athletes. The ben-
efit for sprinting provides the first evidence justifying the pro-
hibition of GH as a performance-enhancing drug. However,
the doses typically used in the underground and the way GH is
combined with other doping agents and their safety are largely
unknown.

Page 192

The only logical reason I can think of why HGH would be anabolic in bodybuilders is because it's causing hyperinsulinemia which effectively blocks all muscle catabolic processes. The concurrent rise in IGF1 is then used to overcome the peripheral insulin resistance and is directly anabolic (systemically).

But then again large circulating amounts of IGF1 will make everything grow. In response to resistance training local IGF1 levels increase, this is independent of serum levels....

Unless you have low levels of IGF1 I don't see the point. The acute and direct effect of HGH is anti-insulin and diabetogenic.

I sometimes wonder if it will sell at all if it was called "Human Sleep Hormone".

In the sick patients given HGH it raised acute-phase proteins:

Acute-phase proteins (APPs) are a class of proteins whose concentrations in blood plasma either increase (positive acute-phase proteins) or decrease (negative acute-phase proteins) in response to inflammation. This response is called the acute-phase reaction (also called acute-phase response). The acute-phase reaction characteristically involves fever, acceleration of peripheral leukocytes, circulating neutrophils and their precursors. The terms acute-phase protein and acute-phase reactant (APR) are often used synonymously, although some APRs are (strictly speaking) polypeptides rather than proteins.

In response to injury, local inflammatory cells (neutrophil granulocytes and macrophages) secrete a number of cytokines into the bloodstream, most notable of which are the interleukins IL1, and IL6, and TNF-α. The liver responds by producing many acute-phase reactants. At the same time, the production of a number of other proteins is reduced; these proteins are, therefore, referred to as "negative" acute-phase reactants. Increased acute-phase proteins from the liver may also contribute to the promotion of sepsis.

Source: Acute-phase protein - Wikipedia

Sounds yummy.

Source:
WILLIAMS TEXTBOOK OF ENDOCRINOLOGY FIFTEENTH EDITION

 

[Cman90]

Damn, bro cited a medical textbook. Ghoul would be proud lol

I've also come to a similar conclusion. The risk and cost vs reward is not worth it for me with HGH. If I ever sought HGH like benefits I'd run tesamorelin.

Good post sir.

 

[just some dude]

yes, hgh increases insulin resistance.
so… increase insulin sensitivity …

i mean cmon this is mpmd tier stuff

 

[Proud Pangolin]

I've had some personal experiences using HGH that included getting a relatively high IGF1 level on a low dose (2iu).

However I found it made me prediabetic. It's fair enough that I carry too much bodyfat to ever be called a bodybuilder but I'm not finding any positives with this drug.

Is this just a big circle jerk?

I mean this is from a text book on HGH:

Page 163

View attachment 379650
Page 128

This is the interesting part:

Page 191


Page 192

The only logical reason I can think of why HGH would be anabolic in bodybuilders is because it's causing hyperinsulinemia which effectively blocks all muscle catabolic processes. The concurrent rise in IGF1 is then used to overcome the peripheral insulin resistance and is directly anabolic (systemically).

But then again large circulating amounts of IGF1 will make everything grow. In response to resistance training local IGF1 levels increase, this is independent of serum levels....

Unless you have low levels of IGF1 I don't see the point. The acute and direct effect of HGH is anti-insulin and diabetogenic.

I sometimes wonder if it will sell at all if it was called "Human Sleep Hormone".

In the sick patients given HGH it raised acute-phase proteins:

Source: Acute-phase protein - Wikipedia

Sounds yummy.

Source:
WILLIAMS TEXTBOOK OF ENDOCRINOLOGY FIFTEENTH EDITION

when looking at GH and anabolism there is one major problem.

SYSTEMIC IGF-1 IS NOT RELEVANT FOR ANABOLISM!! so messurimg systemic igf-1 and trying to find a relation to anabolism is a wrong take to begin with.

Autocrine igf-1 (meaning inside the cells) is anabolic. The problem is that we cant really messure that in vivo.
Sytemic igf-1 even surpresses to some degreee autocrine igf-1, even though its kimd a inversed U-curve

Systemic igf-1 stops raising at about 6IU in all studys. Real anabolic effect are noticed by thoisends of people starting at 8IU but reqlistically at 10-12 IU.

Why? because while systemic igf-1 isnt raised further, autocrine igf-1 is!!!!

 

[pancetta]

Yeah, I agree. Unless you use something like 8IUs or more with Insulin the effects for muscle growth aren’t significant at all and if you don’t make money from bodybuilding in one way or another it’s just not worth it

 

[bananafeet]

yes, hgh increases insulin resistance.
so… increase insulin sensitivity …

i mean cmon this is mpmd tier stuff

No, HGH directly opposes the effects of insulin. It causes insulin resistance in muscle tissue...

There is no way to "increase insulin sensitivity" when HGH is involved. It is anti insulin and diabetogenic.

You have to add more insulin or stop the HGH.

Also did you read the part where HGH was trialled in sick patients to increase anabolism and ended up killing them from releasing massive amounts of inflammatory factors from the liver? Is that MPMD tier too?

 

[johnjay06]

Good discussion. I dropped mine a few days ago. I think I’m done with it as well for a little while. It makes my joints ache and heart race

 

[lilhawk]

No, HGH directly opposes the effects of insulin. It causes insulin resistance in muscle tissue...

There is no way to "increase insulin sensitivity" when HGH is involved. It is anti insulin and diabetogenic.

You have to add more insulin or stop the HGH.

Also did you read the part where HGH was trialled in sick patients to increase anabolism and ended up killing them from releasing massive amounts of inflammatory factors from the liver? Is that MPMD tier too?

That's odd because Retatrutide keeps my fasting blood glucose in the 70's on 10iu of Serostim per day. So clearly you can increase insulin sensitivity while using a good dose of GH, and no you don't have to use insulin to do so as I never have. You said you're too fat to be called a bodybuilder so that is likely where your insulin resistance comes from, not the measly 2iu dose of GH you were taking. Not sure what miracles you're expecting from 2iu of GH, but at that dose it does literally nothing positive or negative. Do some more research because you're flat out wrong.

 

[frofrank]

And the COST! I keep thinking about this as well, as I only have about a 90 day supply left and its making me reconsider how much benefit am I really getting from damn near $700 a year at a moderate dose. Although I've had no issues with my glucose at 4iu(shoutout reta), it begs the part am I getting anything out 4iu and if not when I go up to 6-8iu will it be worth that insulin sensitivity issue ( and once again, COST)

Idk. The thing I struggle with the most about it and this is a sheep way to think but, all the greats and all those smarter than me have always used it. So you would think clearly its worth it?

 

[lilhawk]

And the COST! I keep thinking about this as well, as I only have about a 90 day supply left and its making me reconsider how much benefit am I really getting from damn near $700 a year at a moderate dose. Although I've had no issues with my glucose at 4iu(shoutout reta), it begs the part am I getting anything out 4iu and if not when I go up to 6-8iu will it be worth that insulin sensitivity issue ( and once again, COST)

Idk. The thing I struggle with the most about it and this is a sheep way to think but, all the greats and all those smarter than me have always used it. So you would think clearly its worth it?

Cost? $700 a year is literally about $60 a month. That is dirt cheap. At 4iu you're barely going to see any positive effects from it. Double that dose and you will be getting where you need to be. There is a reason most everyone uses GH. It works and is one of the main reasons you see bodybuilders looking the way they look. You're just not using enough plain and simple, but if $700 a year for GH is too much then it probably isn't something you're going to want to keep using anyway.

 

[frofrank]

Cost? $700 a year is literally about $60 a month. That is dirt cheap. At 4iu you're barely going to see any positive effects from it. Double that dose and you will be getting where you need to be. There is a reason most everyone uses GH. It works and is one of the main reasons you see bodybuilders looking the way they look. You're just not using enough plain and simple, but if $700 a year for GH is too much then it probably isn't something you're going to want to keep using anyway.

Exactly though, so lets double that dose, now were $120 a month just for 8iu.

I just mean in comparison to everything else, obviously in the grand scheme of things its not that much money but compared to what a $25 vial of test? Its easily the most expensive part of any AAS cycle, but is it even nearly top 3 in terms of what its doing for you? That's my thoughts at least.

 

[The Answ3r]

I think you’re looking at this pretty rationally.

GH on its own isn’t strongly anabolic in the way androgens are. Most of what people call “anabolic” with GH is indirect, largely mediated through igf-1 and nutrient partitioning. On paper that sounds powerful, but in real-world bodybuilding most of the dramatic results come from stacking it with androgens, adequate calories, and sometimes insulin. Alone, it’s usually subtle.

You’re also right that GH has anti-insulin effects acutely and can worsen glucose control, especially if body fat is higher. That’s well documented. For some people the trade-off just isn’t worth it.

From my own experience, I’m very igf-responsive like you. Low doses push my igf high. But visually? Without GH my face actually looks better and fresher. With GH I get more fullness, even in a deficit, which is nice for muscle roundness. But it’s not some magic transformation.

To me GH is more like a refinement tool than a foundation. It’s the cherry on top, not the cake itself. If someone has low igf-1, maybe it makes more sense. If not, the benefits can be modest compared to the cost and metabolic trade-offs.

I wouldn’t call it a circle jerk, but I also wouldn’t call it essential. For most people it’s optional, something to experiment with if you have the budget and understand the pros and cons, not a must-have.

 

[bananafeet]

That's odd because Retatrutide keeps my fasting blood glucose in the 70's on 10iu of Serostim per day. So clearly you can increase insulin sensitivity while using a good dose of GH, and no you don't have to use insulin to do so as I never have. You said you're too fat to be called a bodybuilder so that is likely where your insulin resistance comes from, not the measly 2iu dose of GH you were taking. Not sure what miracles you're expecting from 2iu of GH, but at that dose it does literally nothing positive or negative. Do some more research because you're flat out wrong.

I literally quoted the greatest text book on the market. What research am I missing?

Or are you upset because I criticised your favourite drug?

I've been on this forum long enough to detect the circular logic used:
1. Your too fat you need to diet down
2. You have no size you need to increase your muscle mass.

With these two lines you could send someone chasing their tail for years.

Maybe your serostim is bunk? 2iu is plenty and it's actually above the replacement dose. It got my IGF1 well out of the reference range.

 

[Kralteramon]

My opinion on what HGH’s benefits / ultimate effects are below. there is not always conclusive evidence behind this but it seems to hold true for a most people:
- Recovery improves, however this stops being true when your sleep worsens, which it usually does.
- You hold more intracellular water, looking fuller.
- Proposed increase in hyperplasia, not proven but everybody hopes this is true. It’s proven in animal studies. From evidence we can be sure that things like your facial features definitely grow.
- Lypolisis goes up when gh is present, probably burning more fat over the long run.
- Improved connective tissue strength
- Better skin quality through increased collagen synthesis
- GH doesn’t cause hypertrophy
- More GH does not equal more growth. There is a plateau due to receptor downregulation

 

[RockyP]

The biggest benefit i see from GH strong anticatabolism, reduced fat mass, and significant muscle fullness / pumps even when on HRT levels of test. Plus I’m an old fart so having GH in at 4 - 6 iu per day makes a big difference for me. If I was in my 20’s I wouldn’t touch it.

There’s a strong synergy for anabolism running “high” (whatever that is for the individual) dosages of test and GH with ample food. The blood sugar issues can largely be mitigated by dosing a single bolus at bedtime and using a GLP-1 alongside it

 

[bananafeet]

Yes the protien sparing comes from the Free Fatty Acids that HGH makes.

But this is also the mechanism that gives you transient diabetes.

I mean I'd rather just use Metformin to stop my liver using protien to make glucose.

 

[The Answ3r]

Yeah… but keep in mind metformin isn’t some magic “anti-gluconeogenesis only” switch.

It can lower igf-1, blunt mTOR signaling a bit, and for some people it absolutely destroys the GI tract. When people say “possible diarrhea,” they’re being polite. It can be full-on life reconsideration levels.

How do I know? Personal experience. Let’s just say it happened while I was driving. Still get flashbacks when I see a highway exit sign.

If you’re using it strategically for glucose control, cool. But taking it just to micromanage liver glucose production while running growth compounds is a bit like stepping on the gas and the brake at the same time.

 

[bananafeet]

Yeah… but keep in mind metformin isn’t some magic “anti-gluconeogenesis only” switch.

It can lower igf-1, blunt mTOR signaling a bit, and for some people it absolutely destroys the GI tract. When people say “possible diarrhea,” they’re being polite. It can be full-on life reconsideration levels.

How do I know? Personal experience. Let’s just say it happened while I was driving. Still get flashbacks when I see a highway exit sign.

If you’re using it strategically for glucose control, cool. But taking it just to micromanage liver glucose production while running growth compounds is a bit like stepping on the gas and the brake at the same time.

The Metformin SR is fine. I don't get much GI distress from it.

No I am not taking it with HGH. Just with semaglutide.

I think the effects on anabolism, igf1 etc are pretty much overridden by the testosterone.

I also only take it for a few months then come off again.

 

[bananafeet]

Several abnormalities of serum chemistries have been noted in GH Tg mice.
Serum IGF-I is elevated two- to threefold in all lines that were evaluated, but these elevations do not correlate with the elevation in serum GH. High serum insulin levels also were observed. Because the increase in insulin is not accompanied by alterations in serum glucose, these Tg mice can be considered insulin resistant. Consistent with insulin resistance, MT bGH Tg mice were found to have down-regulated hepatic insulin receptors. Elevated serum cholesterols, but normal triglycerides, were found in all GH Tg mice so studied.
Growth hormone Tg mice exhibit significant histopathology. Virtually all GH Tg lines develop severe renal pathology, which is the likely reason for their reduced fife spans. The renal pathology is manifested by glomerular enlargement and progressive glomerulosclerosis, leading to end stage renal disease marked by nephron atrophy and tubular cystic lesions. The livers of GH Tg mice are usually markedly enlarged and characterized by centrilobular, hepatocellular, and hepatonuclear hypertrophy.

Source: HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE PHARMACOLOGY, Basic and Clinical Aspects

This sounds yummy too. FSGS, diabetes, hyperinsulinemia and enlarged organs. With IGF1 2x-3x normal.

 

[RockyP]

Source: HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE PHARMACOLOGY, Basic and Clinical Aspects

This sounds yummy too. FSGS, diabetes, hyperinsulinemia and enlarged organs. With IGF1 2x-3x normal.

It’s all in the details and how it impacts you. My igf1 is barely over 200 on 6 iu. There is huge variability in binding proteins etc. you definitely DO NOT want your systemic igf1 level 3x normal. My take on this is that GH is abused and that’s where the problems lie. 2-6 iu for most users will be fine. High dosages over long periods of time is going to invite problems.