Advice: ACL reconstruction and MORE

[makinov]

Hello bros.

I've long thought about trying a cycle in relation to bodybuilding, but never got serious about trying for some reason. Now maybe a good opportunity to test it out, see what it does for me, since I'm having an ACL reconstruction, and having done one before (same ACL re-torn). The main purpose of the steroid usage would be to prepare before surgery and to recover during rehab. Having gone through this rigorous process once before, doing so with extra substances to aid would give me a good chance to compare the processes.

A few background notes:
* 26 years old, 5'10", 150 lbs on circa 10 % bodyfat, athletic build.
* The first surgery -- very successful -- was at age 18 and I fully recovered having only minor nuisances in the years that followed. Was able to play full contact basketball at a high level and also only minor issues with high level weightlifting (bodybuilding) successfully performing deep, deep squats at both high intensity, high volume, you name it.
* Both times I tore the ACL were freak accidents on the basketball court, unfortunately. I'm done with basketball. I just want a healthy knee and want to be able to squat and train legs intensively and comparatively to the rest of my body.
* While the ACL recovery is my primary goal, I do have ambitions to re-intensify bodybuilding: at age 22 I committed for about a year and a half to training/dieting and gained circa 45 lbs with only a slight increase in body fat percentage. I stopped due to practical reasons (school, etc., thus was not able to withhold the same level of commitment). I want to get back into high commitment lifting, and trying this for the first time will be interesting to gauge whether it will be something I will be doing more of in the future solely for training purposes.

My main inquiries:
* I understand this forum probably gets a lot of newbie threads like this, but the problem -- for me at least -- being very meticulous and wanting information, is the field of information on the subject matter is truly MASSIVE, thus I have no idea what articles relate to my situation and generally where to start.
* I don't know much about any of the substances, but I'm an intelligent guy willing to read and learn if you push me in the right direction.
* I'm European and live in Western Europe. I mention this if maybe the substances have different names on this side of the pond.
* I'm fairly sure I could have purchasing access to most common used stuff, at least, don't know if I were recommended something harder to come by.

The situation (the misc. stuff):
* I'm not having surgery until late summer perhaps not until fall of 2013 even, so I have time to prepare. This is due to practical reasons.
* I imagine starting to use a decent amount of time leading up to my surgery to increase muscle mass in the quads and hams specifically, but of course the rest of the body would follow suit. A drop in body fat percentage would also be nice, but again, the knee is the primary goal. And then using during the rehab period, which is around 12 months. I assume that is too long a time to use, so maybe only for the first, most crucial part of rehab.
* If you're wondering how I'm currently working out my quads. Unfortunately, all I can do is leg extensions and not at a very high intensity. So I do really, really high volume leg extensions (100 to 200 reps in a quad session performed extremely focussed). I re-tore the ACL in May and have trained like this for quads since without ailments in the bum knee. I can do extensive ham work.

Looking forward to reading what you guys have to say,
Makinov.

 

[SHARK1]

Anavar and Primobolan with a maintenance dose of Testosterone Enanthate could very well suit your interests.

Do you want anything drastic in terms of lean body mass gain or bodyfat loss? Because if you don't, then I do think you're well off with what I previously mentioned. On top of everything, I'd initially advice HGH, if you're able to afford it because of it's tissue/cartilage regenerating properties.

 

[makinov]

THANKS SHARK1.

Had the surgery 5 days ago. It was successful (graft: hamstring tendon from other leg, 1st time: hamstring tendon from 'bad' leg). Swelling and limited ROM means muscular atrophy particularly in the quads, and it's very visible basically on a day-by-day basis, unfortunately. Very frustrating sitting idly while legs become smaller and smaller. Once the swelling is minor I can start working on full flexion and (hyper)extension and start the rehab process. I even got an EMS in the post to combat some of the atrophy, before I can fully start working on things.

I'm still contemplating the OP for part of the rehab process. It would be a period where I could walk about gingerly, so I would at this time be able to formulate some kind of split program for the entire body.

Been reading SHARK1's suggested substances .... right now I can easily get ahold of:
- deca
- a variation of test (not sure which)
- clomid

How does this 'package' compare to SHARK1's suggestion and how does it measure for a first timer in my predicament: serious background training, current limitations due to rehab situation, etc.

It's for a 12 week cycle. I was thinking 200 mg deca / week, unsure about the test, and the anti-estrogen is for post-cycle, correct?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

The use of AAS to aid recovery is sparse, very sparse. IMO, unsupported. But, take a read - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134295950

 

[makinov]

The use of AAS to aid recovery is sparse, very sparse. IMO, unsupported. But, take a read - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134295950

I was already reading that thread, and as I understand it OP states that deca does strengthen tendons (collagen synthesis)?

Regardless, I understand using won't magically fix the ACL, but it will certainly aid the rehab process, which I have done once before, and took it very seriously. Took me nearly 15 months to come back to 100 % or close enough, where I could play high intensity basketball and do full ROM squats with decent poundage.

The atrophy suffered from the first two weeks alone post-op is such massive muscle loss that takes many MONTHS of training to regain, naturally. After 1-2 weeks of near nil activity, comes 3-4 weeks of minimal activity, physio exercises, while regaining full ROM (full flexion and hyper extension). Still in this period = atrophy.

Stuff like that I'd really like to combat with a proper cycle.

 

[bickel29]

Well, since you have already been through this once succesfully before, I will assume that you know how important the recovery process is to long-term success of the repaired knee. A correctly done repair procedure and proper rehab is crucial to your quality of life going forward.

I type this as someone who did the opposite - I did not take the rehab as seriously as I should have. I had my knee reconstruction (ACL, PCL, meniscus) 8 years ago and have lived with a less-than-stellar knee since. The problems I have had since (limited ROM, swelling, pain, etc) were because I thought I was wasting time at rehab, I was too busy for rehab, I was strong enough to start playing sports without my docs approval, blah blah blah. I was wrong!

 

[viking23]

I made the same mistakes bick. I wouldn't rush any injury, but I would get myelself back to being able to play sports and train and then use to get back to peak performance

 

[makinov]

Yes, I was extremely meticulous in my rehab period the first time around, and it yielded great results. At the height of my "bodybuilding" phase post ACL, I was 185 lbs (natural weight circa 140 lbs at 5'10") doing tens of 260 lbs squats, FULL ROM (all the way down), perfect technique, even with added heel = more ROM, no problem. Of course, knee was bothered at times but only minorly for example with high volume sessions (example for squats: 10 sets of 10 reps of 220 lbs) it would be inflamed for a couple of days, stuff like that.

The OP is from Februrary 2013, re-tore the ACL in May 2012, since the creation of the thread I DID start doing very nice squats (all things considered): very controlled reps, not too heavy and sometimes performing squats handsfree thus using both hands to "spot" myself and relieve weight in the deep of the ROM, etc. (this can be done with a safety bar or using a hip-belt).

And just to make it clear: the cycle that I'm looking into in this thread isn't SOLELY for the knee. My current situation merely serves as a great opportunity to try it out for the first time. Muscular training will always be the number 1 priority on a macro scale.

I was thinking I would start the cycle about week 4-6 post OP; that's when I should have gained FULL ROM in the knee (no swelling either at this stage) and this is the point where I can start working out all parts of my body, as I usually do, and this will be done alongside physical therapy specifically for the ACL reconstruction. Actually, I will already gingerly start working out when I become decently mobile and can move about safely: hopefully after week 2 already (that's the time I started getting back to the gym the first time around).

Any advice on when to start the cycle? Any good newbie threads on cycles? Should I do more than one to begin with?

The use of AAS to aid recovery is sparse, very sparse. IMO, unsupported. But, take a read - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134295950

I was already reading that thread, but as I understand it the OP states that some substances, particularly deca, is GOOD for tendons/joints via collagen synthesis?

 

[makinov]

So, got more clarification today. Will be able to get:

* Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) (so no Clomid as described in earlier post)
* deca 200 mg / week
* test 250 mg / week

Of course it's through a friend of a friend of friend (yes, really), I asked for a list, but was then told the person would be able to get almost anything. This is pretty comparable to Phreezer's First Cycle FAQ, no? Deca, test, anti-estrogen. Is it really that simple?

What about dosages? Cycle duration, number of cycles, recovery cycle?

 

[Gunrunner]

I hada bad ankle from a previous dirt bike accident about 6 years ago. I only had an X-ray to determine there were no broken bones. I used RICE to help it heal, but have always had mild to moderate pain with it. Well this past year I did a cycle with 150mg test and 150mg DecaD and all pain went away while on cycle. My last pin of Deca was 15 Jun and Test was 23 June so it's been about 7 weeks since last pin and I still don't have any ankle pain.

Perhaps the ankle would have healed on its own with more rest and time and the gear helped speed recoverery. But since it was an old injury I don't believe it was going to get much better on it's own. Either way, it feels great now and no pain at all.

 

[ericpdell2]

Ive had a similar experience in that I tore my pec major and rotator cuff back in 2008. I did a cycle of Test-e and Deca and it made a world of difference in my recovery. I think I would jump the dosage up a tad from what you have posted, but that is more of a personal opinion and only you will know once you start if you think jumping up is the correct strategy. Good luck in your recovery, but I would really consider upping those dosages just my $.02....

 

[Gunrunner]

I was thinking I would start the cycle about week 4-6 post OP; that's when I should have gained FULL ROM in the knee (no swelling either at this stage) and this is the point where I can start working out all parts of my body, as I usually do, and this will be done alongside physical therapy specifically for the ACL reconstruction. Actually, I will already gingerly start working out when I become decently mobile and can move about safely: hopefully after week 2 already (that's the time I started getting back to the gym the first time around).

Any advice on when to start the cycle? Any good newbie threads on cycles? Should I do more than one to begin with?

Have you done any previous cycles?

I think your time line is ok, but it might be prudent to wait a little longer. My fear is that you will feel so good and have such good gains on cycle that you may push it too hard and either reinjure yourself or actually slow the healing prcoess. In other words, if you can take it easy while on cycle it "may" help recovery.

 

[makinov]

Have you done any previous cycles?

I think your time line is ok, but it might be prudent to wait a little longer. My fear is that you will feel so good and have such good gains on cycle that you may push it too hard and either reinjure yourself or actually slow the healing prcoess. In other words, if you can take it easy while on cycle it "may" help recovery.

No, this is my first dabble. I'm very anxious (the good way) to see what it does in junction with my training. After years of serious training.

Even at this point, I'm feeling good, all things considering. It's now been a week since surgery. I walk without crutches but gingerly, to walk fast I need one crutch. Flexion is beyond 90 degrees already, extension at about 5-10 degrees from 0, so next step is 0 and eventually hyperextension 5-10 degrees as any healthy knee should be able to do. The swelling is waaay down and will be the factor to how fast I reach hyperextension, but I'm ahead of schedule thus far. Doing lots of LLLD stretches. Atrophy is so frustrating, every day my quads become smaller and smaller no matter how many static reps I do :'( .. I'm waiting for an EMS in the mail, but it's all the same, since I've gained so much mobility I'll soon start REALLY working it out. I regret not having prepared and preemptively buy an EMS.

I also considered waiting, till the knee is more dependable and the intensity of my overall training and the physio training has picked up. Maybe 3-4 or 5th month.

I will, in my mind, compare it to my first rehab process, in 2007, where I was 21. Things progressed more or less smoothly back then, so let's so how it will work out with the same effort + some aids.

I am also done with basketball. Two times, it's just not worth it to me risking devastating injuries like that. When healthy, I will shoot around by myself, but I will hesitate to even play pick-up games, also due to my competitiveness I don't go half-speed, which definitely was the cause of it the first time .

Just wanna lift. Bodybuilding really is the fountain of youth. The cure of many ailments. Wanna be able to do very decent squatting again, if I can get to that point with only minor issues during, that would be a success. And that's what I did last time.

Ive had a similar experience in that I tore my pec major and rotator cuff back in 2008. I did a cycle of Test-e and Deca and it made a world of difference in my recovery. I think I would jump the dosage up a tad from what you have posted, but that is more of a personal opinion and only you will know once you start if you think jumping up is the correct strategy. Good luck in your recovery, but I would really consider upping those dosages just my $.02....

Thank you. What dosages do you suggest?

 

[Gunrunner]

No, this is my first dabble. I'm very anxious (the good way) to see what it does in junction with my training. After years of serious training.

I also considered waiting, till the knee is more dependable and the intensity of my overall training and the physio training has picked up. Maybe 3-4 or 5th month.





Thank you. What dosages do you suggest?

I personally would wait giving the body more time to natty heal. If you do decide to go on now then as a standard the first cycle should always be Test only. Test is the basis of all cycles and you need to know how you react to it. If you are taking more then one substance then you don't know what is having a positive or negative effect on you.

Keep it simple and go with 200mg Test E/C a week for 10 weeks and then do a proper PCT. Don't start anything until you have all necessary gear on hand; especially everything for PCT! You will also need and AI in case you have any estrogen problems. I would recommend you get some blood work done before you start so you know where you are natty.

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[Gunrunner]

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[Galileo]

The use of AAS to aid recovery is sparse, very sparse. IMO, unsupported. But, take a read - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134295950

Curious about your opinin here.

Take an example like Branch Warren. He tore his patella tendon, if memory serves. A CRIPPLING, serious injury that would leave a natural athlete in rehab for probably years. Yet he was back on track (after extensive surgery) in a matter of months.
He's just one of many examples of heavily assisted athletes who recover from serious, serious injuries very quickly, while natural athletes run around with a "bad knee" or "bad elbow" for months or years because recovery is just that slow.

Hope you will reply!

 

[Galileo]

The use of AAS to aid recovery is sparse, very sparse. IMO, unsupported. But, take a read - https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134295950

Surprised to hear you say this. What do you base your opinion on? I assume the scientfic evidence you link to.

I find it interesting how many heavily aided athletes recover from DEBILITATING injuries within just months while natural athletes take much, MUCH longer.
A recent example is Branch Warren. Tore his patella tendon I think. Extensive surgery. He was back within months! For a natural, that injury would prob. have taken years....if recovery would even be made! And his rehab protocol wasn't exactly therapeutic by the book.. You literally have guys totally bust their knees or shoulders and come back within months or a year, while naturals run around with a "bad knee" or "bad shoulder" for months or even years because, well, recovery from overuse due to faulty movement patterns is just that slow.

There are just too many examples similar to this one of guys on heavy amounts of juice that recovery so quickly from big injuries that would leave a natural in the dust for a long, long time for me to think that AAS and other growth factors don't play a HUGE part in recovering from injuries.

 

[Dr JIM]

Mak
If Deca aids the rehab process then you need to more specific in defining "aid", since walking also "aids" the rehab process.

As DOC has already mentioned, and I certainly agree, there is NO evidence AAS SELECTIVELY enhance collagen synthesis, especially in vivo.

 

[makinov]

Dr. Jim, aiding by building muscle, supportive for the knees: quads, hams, glutes, hip-flexors, etc. at a faster rate than natty.

 

[Dr JIM]

Unfortunately an imbalance between muscle and collagenous support is what is responsible for many sports related injuries from the outset.

More specifically the muscles of a particular compartment such as the knee or shoulder can develop "strength" at a pace which exceeds that of their associated ligaments or tendons.

Importantly this aberration can certainly be enhanced under the influence of AAS.

The net effect is a potential to tear either tendons or ligaments because of this imbalance. Interestingly, the most common interval for re-tears of an ACL Rotator Cuff, or SLAP is in the first 3-6 months and IME those who use AAS double that re-injury rate, because they "push" their rehab beyond the tolerance limits.

AD Peterson was and is a remarkable exception to the traditional rules of rehab.

Rest assured, 99% of people will accomplish nothing more than re-injury by even attempting to reproduce what he was able to accomplish.