Aromatase Inhibitors and Joint Pain

It's pretty horrible what happened to you (and probably Chemman) regarding arimidex. Was yours Rx or research chemical or what?

I'd back away from the GCs. Even orally they will slow tendon healing.

Just goes to show you that all drugs (rx or not) can be extremely dangerous!!!
 
It's pretty horrible what happened to you (and probably Chemman) regarding arimidex. Was yours Rx or research chemical or what?

I'd back away from the GCs. Even orally they will slow tendon healing.

Just goes to show you that all drugs (rx or not) can be extremely dangerous!!!

That's for sure! Mine was Rx --- got it from my endocrinologist. I have to thank you for your thread regarding the fluoroquinolone antibiotics. If it hadn't been for it, I may have taken ciprofloxacin about two months ago. I told my urologist that I didn't want to risk it because I was already having issues with my wrists, and he prescribed me something else. I don't even want to think about how much it would suck to have to deal with this crap from the AI, and then to have cipro's sides on top of it...

I'm no longer on GCs, but I have to admit: they did their job. I hate what GCs do to the body, so I didn't go into it lightly, but they are excellent at reducing inflammation. AIs are known to cause changes in the tenosynovial fluid, but not in the tendons themselves. I don't really understand this well, and as far as how it would result in the pain and stuck joints: I have no idea. Supposedly everything goes back to normal after enough time passes (6 to 18 months). However, if you keep using the affected tendons when there is inflammation, you can cause irritation or scarring, and then what would have been a temporary problem can become chronic. I went for the oral GCs (but not the injections) because the thought of this becoming permanent was pretty awful...
 
One of the major side effects of AIs is the development of musculoskeletal symptoms. These symptoms were originally referred to as Arthralgia Syndrome, but more recently the term AI-induced musculoskeletal symptoms (AIMSS) has been used to describe the constellation of joint pain, symmetric morning stiffness improving with activity, a sensation of abrupt aging, and soft tissue thickening. Carpal tunnel syndrome has also been demonstrated in a group of women with other symptoms of AIMSS. The hands and wrists are the most common sites of pain, but any joint may be affected. While these features have all been recognized under the auspices of AIMSS, there are no formal diagnostic criteria for this syndrome. Most studies rely on elevation of pain scores in conjunction with AI use to define the syndrome.

Reports on the incidence of AIMSS in patients using AIs vary widely due to differing definitions of the syndrome. In adjuvant trials of third generation AIs (anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane), the prevalence of bone and joint symptoms was between 5 and 36%. However, more recent studies performed outside of clinical trials suggest that the prevalence is even higher. In a cross sectional survey of women on AIs, 47% of women had joint pain, and 44% had joint stiffness attributable to AIs. Development of musculoskeletal symptoms is thought to contribute to the poor compliance associated with AIs; however, studies also suggest that joint complaints are also associated with better outcomes and less risk of breast cancer recurrence.

The mechanisms by which AIMSS develop remain unknown, and several studies have incorporated rheumatologic assessment to investigate whether the symptoms can be attributed to an underlying rheumatologic process. The results are conflicting.

Based on the results of this study, researchers did not find evidence to support an inflammatory basis for AIMSS. They identified a higher than expected frequency of positive ANA and previously undiagnosed autoimmune disease, but these issues were evenly distributed among cases and controls, suggesting they are likely not related to medication exposure, and simply reiterating the importance of a thorough rheumatologic work-up for symptomatic patients.


Shanmugam V, McCloskey J, Elston B, Allison S, Eng-Wong J. The CIRAS study: a case control study to define the clinical, immunologic, and radiographic features of aromatase inhibitor-induced musculoskeletal symptoms. Breast Cancer Research and Treatment 2011:1-10. The CIRAS study: a case control study to define the clinical, immunologic, and radiographic features of aromatase inhibitor-induced musculoskeletal symptoms

Aromatase inhibitors (AIs) are widely prescribed for post-menopausal hormone receptor-positive breast cancer; however, musculoskeletal symptoms limit their tolerability. The purpose of this study was to determine whether joint pain in women receiving AIs is associated with inflammatory arthritis as measured by the disease activity score-28 (DAS-28), and to evaluate association with tenosynovitis on ultrasound. A total of 48 postmenopausal women with stage I–III breast cancer and hand pain were recruited from the Lombardi Comprehensive Cancer Center.

Those receiving AIs were cases (n = 25), and those not receiving AIs were controls (n = 23). During a single study visit, subjects underwent blinded rheumatologic evaluation, DAS-28, health assessment questionnaires, autoantibodies, inflammatory markers, hand X-ray, and hand Duplex ultrasound.

There were no significant differences between cases and controls in DAS-28, or inflammatory markers. A positive ANA (titer > 1:160) was found in ten patients, four of whom met criteria for autoimmune disease (two with rheumatoid arthritis and two with Sjogren’s syndrome, equally distributed among cases and controls). This highlights the importance of considering underlying autoimmune disease in subjects with musculoskeletal complaints. Morning stiffness was more prolonged in women receiving AIs, but this did not reach statistical significance (P = 0.07). Ultrasound evidence of flexor tenosynovitis was common in both groups. Although tenosynovitis was not correlated with AI use (P = 0.26), there was a trend toward an association between tenosynovitis and morning stiffness (P = 0.089).

While aromatase inhibitor-induced musculoskeletal symptoms (AIMSS) were more common in subjects receiving AIs, they were not unique to AI users. There was no association between presence of AIMSS features and other chemotherapy or medication exposures. Although the majority of subjects had been using AIs for more than 6 months, this study did not find evidence for inflammatory arthritis in women with hand pain receiving AIs. Further studies are needed to develop a case definition of AIMSS, and to confirm whether these symptoms are attributable to AI use.
 
hmmm. After reading this thread and dealing with joint problems myself (had problems before TRT and AI), I would like to stop taking an AI. However, I do have some gyno (lumps) and don't want that to get worse if I were to discontinue the AI. What to do?
 
Adex is a horrible drug. I remember taking it 3x per week at .25 mg per dose when my estrogen was high. I'll just say that I would rather have high estrogen then some of the side effects that stuff brought on me. Made me feel like a total zombie and I clicked like an old man when I walked. To this day my right knee when I go running hurts for about 3 days afterwards, and it never hurt before taking adex. The so called forum experts who recommend taking adex like it's candy are really doing people a huge disservice. Add me to the list of people who adex in some way messed up permanently.
 
Adex is a horrible drug. I remember taking it 3x per week at .25 mg per dose when my estrogen was high. I'll just say that I would rather have high estrogen then some of the side effects that stuff brought on me. Made me feel like a total zombie and I clicked like an old man when I walked. To this day my right knee when I go running hurts for about 3 days afterwards, and it never hurt before taking adex. The so called forum experts who recommend taking adex like it's candy are really doing people a huge disservice. Add me to the list of people who adex in some way messed up permanently.

I think you're pretty much spot on. I am a so-called forum expert, and while I never recommended taking it like its candy, I did recommend it to people who were experiencing symptoms of high E2. Though after having experienced long lasting, severe wrist pain, I don't think I could ever recommend this drug again.

Nothing like a firsthand experience to balance theoretical knowledge...
 
I wasnt obviously referring to you structure I meant no offense; it's just that I see all the time some pretty outrageous recommendations about how often and how much adex one should take. Just the other day on another forum I saw someone recommend 1 mg of adex every 3days to a member who had low t and mildly high estrogen. It's actually kind if disturbing. I wish I'd never have touched the stuff. Zinc works too. It may take longer to bring down estrogen but at least your not doing any harm. I really feel like adex dud something weird to me that I can't quite pinpoint. But I know for sure my knee problems are definitely from it. I am glad thus threads here so at least if someone decides to take it they will maybe start with tiny doses abd be mindful of sides.
 
It's a cancer treatment drug. That fact alone should set the stage for extreme caution. Tell your PCP you're taking it to control E2 as part of your TRT protocol and watch him recoil in horror.

There are so many options available in TRT that there should be no need to stick with one that requires it.
 
I think you're pretty much spot on. I am a so-called forum expert, and while I never recommended taking it like its candy, I did recommend it to people who were experiencing symptoms of high E2. Though after having experienced long lasting, severe wrist pain, I don't think I could ever recommend this drug again.

Nothing like a firsthand experience to balance theoretical knowledge...

Yes, a few years ago everyone thought you HAD to have arimidex.
Now we have lots of members complaining of long term problems.

A few years ago everyone thought you HAD to treat "low cortisol" with corticosteroids.
Now there are lots of folks that cannot get off of HC or have long term bone death from them.

Even longer ago we had lots of people taking armour thyroid because they thought they had thyroid problems. I bet 1 in 10 are still on the thyroid meds.

What's next?
 
Yes, a few years ago everyone thought you HAD to have arimidex.
Now we have lots of members complaining of long term problems.

A few years ago everyone thought you HAD to treat "low cortisol" with corticosteroids.
Now there are lots of folks that cannot get off of HC or have long term bone death from them.

Even longer ago we had lots of people taking armour thyroid because they thought they had thyroid problems. I bet 1 in 10 are still on the thyroid meds.

What's next?

Rx meds in general. Especially for young dudes with a lot to lose.

I'm glad people are coming out and saying what a DISSERVICE it is to recommend AI's, especially when these "experts" are not doctors, have never stepped foot in a medical school/university, and have no accountability.

It's been about 2.5 years of torture for me, and I don't think I will ever be back to "normal." Slow improvements but that's with major pharmaceutical intervention.
 
I wasnt obviously referring to you structure I meant no offense; it's just that I see all the time some pretty outrageous recommendations about how often and how much adex one should take. Just the other day on another forum I saw someone recommend 1 mg of adex every 3days to a member who had low t and mildly high estrogen. It's actually kind if disturbing. I wish I'd never have touched the stuff. Zinc works too. It may take longer to bring down estrogen but at least your not doing any harm. I really feel like adex dud something weird to me that I can't quite pinpoint. But I know for sure my knee problems are definitely from it. I am glad thus threads here so at least if someone decides to take it they will maybe start with tiny doses abd be mindful of sides.

No offense taken. It was definitely a lesson for me to do more research on the side effects of a drug before taking it.

In the past, here's how it would typically go for me: you get prescribed a drug by your doctor, and you look over the warnings that your drug store prints out. Even if you were prescribed a sugar pill, that list of warnings is invariably long. You shrug it off and think: "if it was dangerous, my doctor wouldn't have prescribed it to me."

The problem is that you never really know how common or severe the side effects are until you do the research. If I had looked a little more closely before taking adex, I'd have seen that about half of all adex users will get joint pain, and that a sizable portion of them will rank their pain a 9 or a 10. That would have gotten my attention...

On the bright side, there's a lot of women on breast cancer forums that say the pain eventually does go away, even if it takes a long time. I read about one woman who took adex for 3.5 years, and although she had horrible pain at first (and she never stopped the drug), she was currently pain free.
 
I posted earlier and on another thread that I thought Arimidex had me headed to two hip replacements. By a year after cessaton, things have improved gradually to the point where I no longer experience hip pain and have resumed high level tennis. But I would never recommend the stuff to anyone. I lowered my Test cyp dose and labs are good with no ai.
 
Hershman DL, Unger JM, Crew KD, Awad D, Dakhil SR, et al. Randomized Multicenter Placebo-Controlled Trial of Omega-3 Fatty Acids for the Control of Aromatase Inhibitor - Induced Musculoskeletal Pain: SWOG S0927. Journal of Clinical Oncology. http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/early/2015/04/29/JCO.2014.59.5595.abstract

Purpose Musculoskeletal symptoms are the most common adverse effects of aromatase inhibitors (AIs) and can result in decreased quality of life and discontinuation of therapy. Omega-3 fatty acids (O3-FAs) can be effective in decreasing arthralgia resulting from rheumatologic conditions and reducing serum triglycerides.

Patients and Methods Women with early-stage breast cancer receiving an AI who had a worst joint pain/stiffness score ≥ 5 of 10 using the Brief Pain Inventory–Short Form (BPI-SF) were randomly assigned to receive either O3-FAs 3.3 g or placebo (soybean/corn oil) daily for 24 weeks. Clinically significant change was defined as ≥ 2-point drop from baseline. Patients also completed quality-of-life (Functional Assessment of Cancer Therapy–Endocrine Symptoms) and additional pain/stiffness assessments at baseline and weeks 6, 12, and 24. Serial fasting blood was collected for lipid analysis.

Results Among 262 patients registered, 249 were evaluable, with 122 women in the O3-FA arm and 127 in the placebo arm. Compared with baseline, the mean observed BPI-SF score decreased by 1.74 points at 12 weeks and 2.22 points at 24 weeks with O3-FAs and by 1.49 and 1.81 points, respectively, with placebo. In a linear regression adjusting for the baseline score, osteoarthritis, and taxane use, adjusted 12-week BPI-SF scores did not differ by arm (P = .58). Triglyceride levels decreased in patients receiving O3-FA treatment and remained the same for those receiving placebo (P = .01). No between-group differences were seen for HDL, LDL, or C-reactive protein.

Conclusion We found a substantial (> 50%) and sustained improvement in AI arthralgia for both O3-FAs and placebo but found no meaningful difference between the groups.
 
Guys I think I have a problem with my E2 levels cause I just started trt at 150mg EW and I split it 75mg on Monday and Thursday
And I am on my second week and in not getting morning wood so idek if that's a problem since I just started
But
I have some left over Adex and I'm wondering if I should take it and how I should take it like .5mg once a week? Idk
But
Can I please have someone help me on this Like should I even be worried?
 
Its unfortunate there isn't more information out there, on this phenomenon (joint problems secondary to AI use). I have been on TRT for approximately 10 years, and things went haywire with estrogen conversion over the past two years and I have really not had an easy time finding a protocol that balanced my hormones until my current protocol; 3 pumps androgel (2nd generation one), 1/4 tbsp. progesterone, 500 mg calcium glucarate, high dose of fish oil, magnesium, vitamin d3, glucosamine, and aromasin 25 mg a day. I started with Armidex, and crashed estrogen which f'n sucks and had a real hard time hitting "my sweet spot" where hormone balance/estrogen levels where steady. With Aromasin, I have done 100 times better. The medicine has been so helpful with quality of life over the past year and I was absolutely happy with the protocol and my body being at equilibrium so to speak which I absolutely notice; in the gym, at work, when dealing with stress/drama, just overall well being. The down side that has me horrified is the joint issues that have recently developed, slowly over time which I do not believe to be low estrogen as bloodwork has been good and I have a super competent endo (Dr. Hulinsky) monitoring. I have had the wrist problems, and to be honest when I introduced glucosamine it got better. I recommend trying glucosamine if anyone hasn't and has the wrist/joint issues. People are correct that it is not a long term fix, but for guys that cycle and are not on ai for long periods of time I think it might have some worthwhile benefits worth the cost (IMHO) Other problems that developed as of late, indicating joint problems secondary to AI; I cannot run on a treadmill and have to stick with elliptical as the treadmill gives me bursitis in the knees (not self diagnosed, saw a specialist and has since resolved). I have an overall stiffness, and see a pain and spine specialist monthly who explained I am filled with arthritis (in my back, shoulder, hands). I just turned 36 y/o but was in a bad accident where my body took some beatings back at 18. Still this all really seemed to kick into high gear, slowly over the last two years with the AI use. The newest issue is a shoulder issue and it f'n sucks. With spring yardwork and cleanup, I exacerbated a shoulder issue I have had but was still able to lift and deal with up until maybe last week when it got enflamed from raking a f' load of leaves working for a buddy who does landscaping (side money for me and to help him out as he bid some jobs that were too big for one guy). Anyway, I did my weekly chest workout which is with dumbells; 4 sets of 10 on flat bench, 4 sets of 10 on inclined bench, and 4 sets on declined bench. I never got to incline or decline and had to stop and now my shoulder is still not right. The chest workout was two days ago and I hope it settles down. I fear there is no treatment my doctors can give me, other than if I need surgery but this is a scary path. I am thinking of trying to cut back the ai to 12.5 mgs, but cutting pharm aromasin is a bitch as the pills are so small and break to pieces and dust. Glad I am not alone. Definitely subscribed to this thread. F'n phenomenons that suck! Glad theres meso! Boot
 
So it appears that all AI's are best avoided. I thought that it was just adex and letro that can cause the bad musculoskeletal side effects, but it appears that Aromasin may be just as bad? Are there any other ways to lower E2 apart from using AI's? Is calcium d-glucarate effective?
 
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