Avg black and white IQ scores; Bob smith

I think what Rod and I agreed on was that in a large body of research, there are in fact differences in mean IQ scores between racial groups. See my long post for the numbers. That really isnt what needs to be argued anymore.

The last thing I included in my long post was the quote that followed the numbers. It asked WHY there were those 15 point differences. It goes back to nature vs nurture. Nature seems to play a substantial role, and as Manuel pointed out in his review of that seminar, a persons environment, particularly when very young, also plays a major role in intellectual abilities. Its probably not 50/50, so the real debate is which side ends up with the larger piece of the pie. And to quote every assmunch researcher on earth "more research is needed."
 
i think it is hereditary. My son had no preschool and missed the first half of kindergarten yet he beat 98% of the state on the basic skills and read better than 99% of the state. He is in 1st grade and his language and reading is at 5th grade level. It is not b/c i work with him any extra. He was born smart, he has not had access to much as far as schooling until the last half of k and than this year of first grade. He owes me big time ;)



ps: And our state scores high when compared across the nation.
 
Thick, didnt you say before that you used to (or still do) read to your son a lot?
 
yes, we read every week. I can reread my post but i believe i stated i dont do anything more. here i will reread it. I stated it is not b/c i work with him any extra. Compared to friends of mine i put little time in. They read and make their kids do homework nightly and spend a lot of time. My comparison for anything extra is in regards to them. Compared to them i do very little in "extra work". Now compared to some kids i am sure I do way more "extra" work. Honestly, the reading and stuff has came so easy to him that we have hardly read at all lately. he will read on his own some except for the encyclopedia and hydroeclectricity book he checked out lmao. I helped him with those. I suppose i do a ton of extra work with him compared to a ghetto kid. I wouldnt know. I am more into sports with him right now since school has been so easy for him. I have trouble remembering what all i did for him in kindergarten. I know we read alot but now that I see other families around here and what they do, alot to me is really very little. yohearwhatimsayin? yet he still blows them out of the water yostillhearwhutimsayin?
Bob Smith said:
Thick, didnt you say before that you used to (or still do) read to your son a lot?
 
I think reading to young kids, from the time they are infants into elemetary school, is vitally important to their intellectual progress. When I mentioned that you said you read to him, I didnt get that from your currnet post, but one you made at least a few weeks ago.

Whats up with the encyclopedia and book on hydroelectric? lol Wait a minute...I used to read my encyclopedia and read through every card in the original Trivial Pursuit Genus Edition when I was 6, 7 years old.
 
I will add to that. Last night he had a music concert. I was sitting with a lady friend whose daughter is 3 months younger than my son. Her daughter is in kindergarten even though she is only 3 mo's younger. This lady spends so much time with her kid(reading wise). I mean she has to do so much homework and reading that it is scary. Blows me out of the water. She doesnt do any outside activity with her.
Okay, back to the concert. My son is singing and she starts talking to me. I dont answer for a minute. Than she was like OMG, I keep forgetting your son is in 1st grade. She always thinks he is in second b/c of his intelligence and maturity. Even though her family is my best friends here and there is only 3 months difference she gets confused b/c my son is so far ahead of her daughter and her daughter is not behind. Now i know it isnt b/c of what i do with him b/c it pales compared to how much she works with her daughter. Plus her daughter had the preschooling etc. So that puts me back into crediting heridity.
Maybe i do a lot more than i give myself credit for, i know i play sports with him probably more than any parent in the state. I will put my time up against anyones there. If he was struggling in school i would switch it up. So all of this babbling may not have answered shit
 
haha, i know what post you got it from. i knew it wasnt from here. I go back and forth on whether i do a lot for him academically and if i dont do alot. I hope you understand. I suppose some week i might spend alot of time reading and than if the subject comes up i feel like i do a lot at that time. Now the subject comes up and i really havent done shit for reading with him for awhile so i feel like i dont do anything. I guess i dont look over the whole scheme of things


Bob, he seems really interested in science. I about shit my pants when he brought home the science encyclopedia. He said the librarian asked if he knew what he was doing and he was like "yes". It was a cool read and he enjoyed it.

Than last week he brought home hydroeclectricity. He read it to me and had no problems. I had to "try" and explain a couple of things lol. The rest he took in well.
 
Very cool! Sounds like an extremely bright kid. You need a tutor for him over the summer?
 
I hate to post this long boring post but it is the easiest way to refute some of the rediculous claims that have been made. Sorry Chris Gordon for violating your recomendations on quotation length. ;)

Mainstream Science on Intelligence


This public statement, signed by 52 internationally known scholars, was active on the information highway early in 1995 following several rather heated and negative responses to Herrnstein & Murray's The Bell Curve. It was first published in The Wall Street Journal, Tuesday, December 13, 1994. An alphabetical listing of the scholars and their home institutions are given at the end of the statement.



Prologue
Since the publication of "The BELL CURVE," many commentators have offered opinions about human intelligence that misstate current scientific evidence. Some conclusions dismissed in the media as discredited are actually firmly supported.

This statement outlines conclusions regarded as mainstream among researchers on intelligence, in particular, on the nature, origins, and practical consequences of individual and group differences in intelligence. Its aim is to promote more reasoned discussion of the vexing phenomenon that the research has revealed in recent decades. The following conclusions are fully described in the major textbooks, professional journals and encyclopedias in intelligence.



The Meaning and Measurement of Intelligence


1) Intelligence is a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings -- "catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.

2) Intelligence, so defined, can be measured, and intelligence tests measure it well. They are among the most accurate (in technical terms, reliable and valid) of all psychological tests and assessments. They do not measure creativity, character, personality, or other important differences among individuals, nor are they intended to.

3) While there are different types of intelligence tests, they all measure the same intelligence. Some use words or numbers and require specific cultural knowledge (like vocabulary). Others do not, and instead use shapes or designs and require knowledge of only simple, universal concepts (many/few, open/closed, up/down).

4) The spread of people along the IQ continuum, from low to high, can be represented well by the BELL CURVE (in statistical jargon, the "normal CURVE"). Most people cluster around the average (IQ 100). Few are either very bright or very dull: About 3% of Americans score above IQ 130 (often considered the threshold for "giftedness"), with about the same percentage below IQ 70 (IQ 70-75 often being considered the threshold for mental retardation).

5) Intelligence tests are not culturally biased against American blacks or other native-born, English-speaking peoples in the U.S. Rather, IQ scores predict equally accurately for all such Americans, regardless of race and social class. Individuals who do not understand English well can be given either a nonverbal test or one in their native language.

6) The brain processes underlying intelligence are still little understood. Current research looks, for example, at speed of neural transmission, glucose (energy) uptake, and electrical activity of the brain.



Group Differences

1) Members of all racial-ethnic groups can be found at every IQ level. The BELL CURVES of different groups overlap considerably, but groups often differ in where their members tend to cluster along the IQ line. The BELL CURVES for some groups (Jews and East Asians) are centered somewhat higher than for whites in general. Other groups (blacks and Hispanics) are centered somewhat lower than non-Hispanic whites.

2) The BELL CURVE for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the BELL CURVE for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks. The evidence is less definitive for exactly where above IQ 100 the BELL CURVES for Jews and Asians are centered.



Practical Importance

1) IQ is strongly related, probably more so than any other single measurable human trait, to many important educational, occupational, economic, and social outcomes. Its relation to the welfare and performance of individuals is very strong in some arenas in life (education, military training), moderate but robust in others (social competence), and modest but consistent in others (law-abidingness). Whatever IQ tests measure, it is of great practical and social importance.

2) A high IQ is an advantage in life because virtually all activities require some reasoning and decision-making. Conversely, a low IQ is often a disadvantage, especially in disorganized environments. Of course, a high IQ no more guarantees success than a low IQ guarantees failure in life. There are many exceptions, but the odds for success in our society greatly favor individuals with higher IQs.

3) The practical advantages of having a higher IQ increase as life settings become more complex (novel, ambiguous, changing, unpredictable, or multi-faceted). For example, a high IQ is generally necessary to perform well in highly complex or fluid jobs (the professions, management); it is a considerable advantage in moderately complex jobs (crafts, clerical and police work); but it provides less advantage in settings that require only routine decision making or simple problem solving (unskilled work).

4) Differences in intelligence certainly are not the only factor affecting performance in education, training, and highly complex jobs (no one claims they are), but intelligence is often the most important. When individuals have already been selected for high (or low) intelligence and so do not differ as much in IQ, as in graduate school (or special education), other influences on performance loom larger in comparison.

5) Certain personality traits, special talents, aptitudes, physical capabilities, experience, and the like are important (sometimes essential) for successful performance in many jobs, but they have narrower (or unknown) applicability or "transferability" across tasks and settings compared with general intelligence. Some scholars choose to refer to these other human traits as other "intelligences."



Source and Stability of Within-Group Differences

1) Individuals differ in intelligence due to differences in both their environments and genetic heritage. Heritability estimates range from 0.4 to 0.8 (on a scale from 0 to 1), most thereby indicating that genetics plays a bigger role than does environment in creating IQ differences among individuals. (Heritability is the squared correlation of phenotype with genotype.) If all environments were to become equal for everyone, heritability would rise to 100% because all remaining differences in IQ would necessarily be genetic in origin.

2) Members of the same family also tend to differ substantially in intelligence (by an average of about 12 IQ points) for both genetic and environmental reasons. They differ genetically because biological brothers and sisters share exactly half their genes with each parent and, on the average, only half with each other. They also differ in IQ because they experience different environments within the same family.

3) That IQ may be highly heritable does not mean that it is not affected by the environment. Individuals are not born with fixed, unchangeable levels of intelligence (no one claims they are). IQs do gradually stabilize during childhood, however, and generally change little thereafter.

4) Although the environment is important in creating IQ differences, we do not know yet how to manipulate it to raise low IQs permanently. Whether recent attempts show promise is still a matter of considerable scientific debate.
Genetically caused differences are not necessarily irremediable (consider diabetes, poor vision, and phenal ketonuria), nor are environmentally caused ones necessarily remediable (consider injuries, poisons, severe neglect, and some diseases). Both may be preventable to some extent.



Source and Stability of Between-Group Differences

1)There is no persuasive evidence that the IQ BELL CURVES for different racial-ethnic groups are converging. Surveys in some years show that gaps in academic achievement have narrowed a bit for some races, ages, school subjects and skill levels, but this picture seems too mixed to reflect a general shift in IQ levels themselves.

2)Racial-ethnic differences in IQ BELL CURVES are essentially the same when youngsters leave high school as when they enter first grade. However, because bright youngsters learn faster than slow learners, these same IQ differences lead to growing disparities in amount learnedas youngsters progress from grades one to 12. As large national surveyscontinue to show, black 17-year-olds perform, on the average, more likewhite 13-year-olds in reading, math, and science, with Hispanics inbetween.

3) The reasons that blacks differ among themselves in intelligenceappear to be basically the same as those for why whites (or Asians orHispanics) differ among themselves. Both environment and geneticheredity are involved.

4) There is no definitive answer to why IQ bell curves differ acrossracial-ethnic groups. The reasons for these IQ differences betweengroups may be markedly different from the reasons for why individualsdiffer among themselves within any particular group (whites or blacks orAsians). In fact, it is wrong to assume, as many do, that the reason whysome individuals in a population have high IQs but others have low IQs must be the same reason why some populations contain more such high (or low) IQ individuals than others. Most experts believe that environment is important in pushing the bell curves apart, but that genetics could be involved too.

5) Racial-ethnic differences are somewhat smaller but still substantial for individuals from the same socioeconomic backgrounds. To illustrate, black students from prosperous families tend to score higher in IQ than blacks from poor families, but they score no higher, on average, than whites from poor families.

6) Almost all Americans who identify themselves as black have white ancestors -- the white admixture is about 20%, on average -- and many self-designated whites, Hispanics, and others likewise have mixed ancestry. Because research on intelligence relies on self-classification into distinct racial categories, as does most other social-science research, its findings likewise relate to some unclear mixture of social and biological distinctions among groups (no one claims otherwise).



Implications for Social Policy

The research findings neither dictate nor preclude any particular social policy, because they can never determine our goals. They can, however, help us estimate the likely success and side-effects of pursuing those goals via different means.



The following professors -- all experts in intelligence and allied fields -- have signed this statement:
Richard D. Arvey, University of Minnesota
Thomas J. Bouchard, Jr., University of Minnesota
John B. Carroll, Un. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Raymond B. Cattell, University of Hawaii
David B. Cohen, University of Texas at Austin
Rene V. Dawis, University of Minnesota
Douglas K. Detterman, Case Western Reserve Un.
Marvin Dunnette, University of Minnesota
Hans Eysenck, University of London
Jack Feldman, Georgia Institute of Technology
Edwin A. Fleishman, George Mason University
Grover C. Gilmore, Case Western Reserve University
Robert A. Gordon, Johns Hopkins University
Linda S. Gottfredson, University of Delaware
Robert L. Greene, Case Western Reserve University
Richard J.Haier, University of Callifornia at Irvine
Garrett Hardin, University of California at Berkeley
Robert Hogan, University of Tulsa
Joseph M. Horn, University of Texas at Austin
Lloyd G. Humphreys, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
John E. Hunter, Michigan State University
Seymour W. Itzkoff, Smith College
Douglas N. Jackson, Un. of Western Ontario
James J. Jenkins, University of South Florida
Arthur R. Jensen, University of California at Berkeley
Alan S. Kaufman, University of Alabama
Nadeen L. Kaufman, California School of Professional Psychology at San Diego
Timothy Z. Keith, Alfred University
Nadine Lambert, University of California at Berkeley
John C. Loehlin, University of Texas at Austin
David Lubinski, Iowa State University
David T. Lykken, University of Minnesota
Richard Lynn, University of Ulster at Coleraine
Paul E. Meehl, University of Minnesota
R. Travis Osborne, University of Georgia
Robert Perloff, University of Pittsburgh
Robert Plomin, Institute of Psychiatry, London
Cecil R. Reynolds, Texas A & M University
David C. Rowe, University of Arizona
J. Philippe Rushton, Un. of Western Ontario
Vincent Sarich, University of California at Berkeley
Sandra Scarr, University of Virginia
Frank L. Schmidt, University of Iowa
Lyle F. Schoenfeldt, Texas A & M University
James C. Sharf, George Washington University
Herman Spitz, former director E.R. Johnstone Training and Research Center, Bordentown, N.J.
Julian C. Stanley, Johns Hopkins University
Del Thiessen, University of Texas at Austin
Lee A. Thompson, Case Western Reserve University
Robert M. Thorndike, Western Washington Un.
Philip Anthony Vernon, Un. of Western Ontario
Lee Willerman, University of Texas at Austin

http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/wsj_main.html
 
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lol, not sure on the plans for summer. His school offers free reading and care during june. His mom wants him to spend more time with her during the summer but wont get off her ass to find out whats available plus she couldnt afford any care. Summer is up in the air right now. He will most likely be with me and swim everyday. He is a hell of a swimmer. Had swimming lessons last year as a kindergartener. His whole class was in beginners and they put him with the 2nd and 3rd graders in the deep end lol. So I let him drive his bike up to the pool by himself. I guess you have to know your child and know what they are capable of. I might have another rugrat some day and not be able to let him do anything on his own until 9 or 10. It is pretty individualistic and again i think it is inherited.



Bob Smith said:
Very cool! Sounds like an extremely bright kid. You need a tutor for him over the summer?
 
Manuel_Hung said:
Bro its not about the color of your skin it is about opportunities! Before 1964 blacks could not use the same bathroom......we are not talking about acient history.

He speculates that IQ scores are influenced by environmental factor

Our results indicate that IQ differences between blacks and whites have to do with experience, says Fagan.

He adds that the results of the current study support the assumption that it is exposure to information, rather than intellectual ability, which accounts for IQ differences between races.


"1) Individuals differ in intelligence due to differences in both their environments and genetic heritage. Heritability estimates range from 0.4 to 0.8 (on a scale from 0 to 1), most thereby indicating that genetics plays a bigger role than does environment in creating IQ differences among individuals. (Heritability is the squared correlation of phenotype with genotype.) If all environments were to become equal for everyone, heritability would rise to 100% because all remaining differences in IQ would necessarily be genetic in origin."

No doubt that environment plays a role but so do genes.
 
dolfe1 said:
(sigh) First there has never been any correlations between race and intelligence found. Race and IQ, yes, there are many different kinds on intelligence. Does IQ measure one's intelligence? NO.

Oh NO? :rolleyes:

"1) Intelligence is a very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings -- "catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.

2) Intelligence, so defined, can be measured, and intelligence tests measure it well. They are among the most accurate (in technical terms, reliable and valid) of all psychological tests and assessments. They do not measure creativity, character, personality, or other important differences among individuals, nor are they intended to."

"2) The BELL CURVE for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the BELL CURVE for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks. The evidence is less definitive for exactly where above IQ 100 the BELL CURVES for Jews and Asians are centered."
 
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