Avg black and white IQ scores; Bob smith

[Rod]

Yesterday, before the race thread was deleted there was a question about the difference between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation). I argued that it was beyond dispute; that no one even questions its existence. Some thought I was full of shit.

Well I will quote a summary of "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns: Report of a Task Force established by the Board of Scientific Affairs of the American Psychological Association
Released August 7, 1995

"1) Differences in genetic endowment contribute substantially to individual differences in (psychometric) intelligence, but the pathway by which genes produce their effects is still unknown. The impact of genetic differences appears to increase with age, but we do not know why.

2) Environmental factors also contribute substantially to the development of intelligence, but we do not clearly understand what those factors are or how they work. Attendance at school is certainly important, for example, but we do not know what aspects of schooling are critical.

3) The role of nutrition in intelligence remains obscure. Severe childhood malnutrition has clear negative effects, but the hypothesis that particular "micro-nutrients" may affect intelligence in otherwise adequately-fed populations has not yet been convincingly demonstrated.

4) There are significant correlations between measures of information processing speed and psychometric intelligence, but the overall pattern of these findings yields no easy theoretical interpretation.

5) Mean scores on intelligence tests are rising steadily. They have gone up a full standard deviation in the last fifty years or so, and the rate of gain may be increasing. No one is sure why these gains are happening or what they mean.

6) The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what causes this differential.

7) It is widely agreed that standardized tests do not sample all forms of intelligence. Obvious examples include creativity, wisdom, practical sense and social sensitivity; there are surely others. Despite the importance of these abilities we know very little about them: how they develop, what factors influence that development, how they are related to more traditional measures."

The complete report can be found here: http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/apa_01.html

Bob read #6, Now what are you going to argue that the APA is racist organization.

 

[dolfe1]

Rod, why are you so infatuated with the subject? Optimism is a far greater determining factor for success than intelligence is.

 

[Rod]

Rod, why are you so infatuated with the subject? Optimism is a far greater determining factor for success than intelligence is.

I'm not infatuated with the subject. It is just one of my many intellectual interests. I made the assertion yester day that a standard deviation gap did exist. Some people thought I was full of shit. Plus I'm bored.

 

[maxx]

Rod, why are you so infatuated with the subject? Optimism is a far greater determining factor for success than intelligence is.

ok...lets not get everyone wound up again.their are stupid people in every bunch.im not taking side herr...i love to argue as much as the next person...but the battle of race can never be solved.

maxx

 

[Manuel_Hung]

The claim of advocates of IQ testing is that IQ measures innate ability. Actually, it measures (in part) the opportunities that the person has had to learn over his lifetime. Poor children get second-rate educational opportunities, and this is reflected in their achievement on all sorts of tests, including IQ tests.

Viewed in this way, the gap in IQ scores between blacks and whites is an indictment of the lack of opportunities to learn that blacks "enjoy". Having been systematically oppressed and deprived of the opportunities of acquiring those characteristics that society uses to measure success, blacks are undeniably inferior, as measured in a number of ways: Income, education, housing, and IQ as well. The claim that this gap arises from "inherent" inferiority is a pseudo-scientific way of justifying the existing lopsided distribution of wealth and power, which is widely believed because it flatters whites and the sense of racial superiority. In fact, the IQ gap, like the income gap, is really a measure of racism, not genetics.

I suggest that you include in your bibliography Science and Politics of IQ by Leon J. Kamin, an old book (1974) but a good one. Kamin exposed the research of Cyril Burt as fraudulent. Burt researched identical twins, and "proved" that IQ was inherited. Burt faked his data over a period of decades, and for good measure also invented a nonexistent research assistant.

Although psychologists are embarrassed to talk about it now, Burt was (before Kamin exposed him) quite prominent in the field. He was not at all a marginal figure: His faked results were a standard in the field, and were incorporated into many widely used textbooks. Burt received high professional honors, and was knighted in his Britain, and given an award by the American Psychological Association.

The Bell Curve was an attempt to revive the genetic argument, after enough years have gone by that people have forgotten about Burt.

 

[Rod]

I suggest that you include in your bibliography Science and Politics of IQ by Leon J. Kamin, an old book (1974) but a good one. Kamin exposed the research of Cyril Burt as fraudulent. Burt researched identical twins, and "proved" that IQ was inherited. Burt faked his data over a period of decades, and for good measure also invented a nonexistent research assistant.

Although psychologists are embarrassed to talk about it now, Burt was (before Kamin exposed him) quite prominent in the field. He was not at all a marginal figure: His faked results were a standard in the field, and were incorporated into many widely used textbooks. Burt received high professional honors, and was knighted in his Britain, and given an award by the American Psychological Association.

The Bell Curve was an attempt to revive the genetic argument, after enough years have gone by that people have forgotten about Burt.

Cyril Burt, A Fraud?

Five years after Cyril Burt's death, he was accused of publishing a fraudulent series of separated twin studies. Scientists were convinced that Burt's data was false and that he invented crucial facts to support his theory that intelligence is inherited. Burt was found guilty of fraud, by the British Psychological Society.
Leslie Hearnshaw published a biography of Burt, Cyril Burt, Psychologist, in which he says some factors that may have had influence in Burt's fraudulent data, were mental illness, the number of assistants helping him, and childhood influences. But there is lack of evidence showing that any of these played a part in his fraudulent data. Many of Hearnshaw's conclusions were based on incomplete records, ambiguous writings, and the memories of his colleagues. Burt was accused of fabricating his results of his twin studies and his assistants.
When this was published by Hearnshaw, a highly respected historian of psychology, Burt was truly believed to be a fraud. Hearnshaw was given access to Burt's diaries and his careful research was strong evidence of the accusations against Burt. It seemed as though the case of Cyril Burt was finally closed with the conclusions by Hearnshaw. But psychologist Robert B. Joynson and sociologist Ronald Fletcher did not agree. Both of them came to the same conclusion, that the charges against Burt were not proven to be true. Joynson reviewed Burt's data, and found that some of Burt's samples were suspicious. He believes that the correlation of .771 reported for his two studies, may simply be "a genuine coincidence".
When Fletcher and Joynson reviewed the diaries of Burt they found no concrete evidence that Burt's data was fake. The defense presented by Fletcher and Joynson have two main points: 1) They show the previously unsuspected flimsiness, misrepresentation and even in some cases factual nonexistence, of the supposedly damning evidence; and 2) They closely examine the points that had aroused suspicion and provide alternative innocent explanations that seem at least plausible as the "guilty" explanations promoted by Burt's accusers (Jensen,1991). Although Burt has been accused of being a fraud, he had many contributions to the field of educational psychology. And recent studies with identical twins have substantiated Burt's theory that individual differences in intelligence are strongly conditioned by genetic factors.

http://fates.cns.muskingum.edu/~psych/psycweb/history/burt.htm

The Minnesota study of twins, accepted by most scholars as a model of its kind, found using a procedure similar to Burts a correlation of +. 78. Burt claimed a correlation of +. 77. If his data was fraudulent why was he right?

I would also like to recommend a book: Science, Ideology and the Media: Cyril Burt Scandal by Ronald Fletcher

 

[Bob Smith]

Its not exactly black and white (no pun intended). From Indiana University...

" Since the controversy around Cyril Burt's name is of great importance to the integrity of psychology and other research fields, it has drawn significant attention from the academic community as a whole. Many prominent individuals in psychology and related fields have examined the evidence on both sides, and the conclusions are mixed. Recently, senior fellows of the British Psychological Society campaigned to have Burt's case reheard so that a new verdict can be rendered. The Society agreed to reopen the case, causing some strong reactions on both sides of the debate. For now, Burt's reputation remains sullied, and his story reminds the field of psychology and academia in general of the importance of intellectual honesty."

 

[Rod]

Its not exactly black and white (no pun intended). From Indiana University...

" Since the controversy around Cyril Burt's name is of great importance to the integrity of psychology and other research fields, it has drawn significant attention from the academic community as a whole. Many prominent individuals in psychology and related fields have examined the evidence on both sides, and the conclusions are mixed. Recently, senior fellows of the British Psychological Society campaigned to have Burt's case reheard so that a new verdict can be rendered. The Society agreed to reopen the case, causing some strong reactions on both sides of the debate. For now, Burt's reputation remains sullied, and his story reminds the field of psychology and academia in general of the importance of intellectual honesty."

I read that too BS. But I want to know if data was fraudulent why was he right?
"The Minnesota study of twins, accepted by most scholars as a model of its kind, found using a procedure similar to Burts a correlation of +. 78. Burt claimed a correlation of +. 77.

I think that he will be vindicated.

 

[Bob Smith]

Rod, I will concede. After doing some more research I have concluded that your notion of blacks being ~15 IQ points below whites is correct. I also found that whites average about 12 IQ points below Jews.

"And these findings are in line with the (by now) accepted IQ results: the average IQ scores for ``African,'' ``Latino,'' ``White,'' ``Asian,'' and ``Jewish'' Americans are 85, 89, 103, 106, and 115, respectively."


What I think is important and really worth some debate is the sentance that followed those numbers...

"Of course, whether these differences are the result of genetic or environmental influences, and whether (or to what extent) they are remediable by purposeful action -- these remain matters of dispute."

This info came from a general bashing of Stephen Gould and his 'research' and was published in The National Review in 1997. http://www.eugenics.net/papers/jprnr.html

 

[brooklynheight]

I thought this new article was interesting


NORTH MIAMI, Fla. -- The North Miami police department dropped a swimming requirement for applicants, saying they need new officers and want to encourage blacks to sign up.

North Miami police say they are dropping the requirement for a year. They say few departments require swimming and their officers rarely save people in water.

Officials also believe the requirement discourages African-Americans and Haitian Americans from applying. The issue surfaced a year ago when a Haitian-American city councilman asked police to drop the requirement because he said blacks historically can't swim.

The request fizzled at the time. Critics say race and ethnicity are not factors when it comes to swimming.

 

[Bob Smith]

Wow, you'd think the Hatians would be expert swimmers.

 

[Rod]

BS I knew you would come around once you saw the data; I know that you are intellectually honest.

That was an excellent review of Goulds book. Rushton is am impeccable scholar.

Your right the big question is " whether these differences are the result of genetic or environmental influences, and whether (or to what extent) they are remediable by purposeful action -- these remain matters of dispute."

From what I gather most experts in the field put the heritability of IQ at about 70%, leaving environment to contribute about 30%. See the textbook "Intelligence" by Nathan Brody.

One of the best books ever written on IQ is "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" by Arthur R. Jensen. [ame="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0275961036//qid=1082664206/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/104-0716407-0815942?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews"]Amazon.com: The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability (Human Evolution, Behavior, and Intelligence) (9780275961039): Arthur R. Jensen: Books[/ame]

 

[Bob Smith]

I havent looked at a lot of research, but I have felt for at least a few years that IQ can be partially inherited. My grandfather's IQ was in the 145 neighborhood, my uncle (grandfathers son) has been tested at ~160, and mine has been tested in the high 140s/low 150s. Thats certainly not proof of inheritibility, but its a small amount of evidence. Now I just need to get mot ivated one of these days and take the Mensa test. Then Mark Kerr and I can hang out and talk about astrophysics, molecular biology, or chicks with big tits.

 

[Rod]

I havent looked at a lot of research, but I have felt for at least a few years that IQ can be partially inherited. My grandfather's IQ was in the 145 neighborhood, my uncle (grandfathers son) has been tested at ~160, and mine has been tested in the high 140s/low 150s. Thats certainly not proof of inheritibility, but its a small amount of evidence. Now I just need to get mot ivated one of these days and take the Mensa test. Then Mark Kerr and I can hang out and talk about astrophysics, molecular biology, or chicks with big tits.

Bob you big spender why don't you drop $9.95 and pick up a copy of "Test Your IQ" by Hans Eysenck. He is one of the most respected psycologists of the last century. http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/eysenck.shtml

 

[chris gordon]

so basically myself and my aryan brothers may be the master race...but not necessarily the smartest?
(said jokingly)

 

[Rod]

Manuel Hung, if his data was fraudulent why did he turn out to be right? The Minnesota study of twins, accepted by most scholars as a model of its kind, found using a procedure similar to Burts a correlation of +. 78. Burt claimed a correlation of +. 77. Mark my words; history will support his findings.

 

[spectrum]

LMAO

Wow, you'd think the Hatians would be expert swimmers.

 

[Manuel_Hung]

Manuel Hung, if his data was fraudulent why did he turn out to be right? The Minnesota study of twins, accepted by most scholars as a model of its kind, found using a procedure similar to Burts a correlation of +. 78. Burt claimed a correlation of +. 77. Mark my words; history will support his findings.

Well my point was there are a lot of valid studies......and a lot of bullshit studues on the deleted thread I posted that there is ALWAYS a difference between the majority and the oppressed minority....for example in Norther Ireland where protestents are the majority and the cathloics are the minority there is a 15 percent difference....so....all cathlocis are inferior???? Bro its not about the color of your skin it is about opportunities! Before 1964 blacks could not use the same bathroom......we are not talking about acient history.

Equal opportunity applies to IQ tests, too, according to CWRU psychologist Joseph Fagan. Given the same opportunity and conditions to learn, a group of college students from different racial and ethnic groups performed at the same level on intelligence tests to close the 15-point gap in scores.

Fagan, along with Cynthia Holland from Cuyahoga Community College, conducted the study "Equal Opportunity Eliminates Racial Differences in IQ." The findings were presented December 1 at the first conference of the International Society for Intelligence Research, where leading researchers in the field of intelligence gathered in Cleveland from November 30 through December 2 at the Holiday Inn Select City Center on Lakeside Avenue.

"Performance on standard IQ tests is influenced by both intellectual ability and by the information to which people have been exposed," says Fagan. For more than two decades, Fagan has studied human intelligence. He developed Infantest, an IQ test for infants as young as six months that tracks visual responses to new and old images.

In prior research on infants, he found that during infancy the overall IQ score for children of all races is basically the same in the first year of life, but something happens between the ages of 2 and 3 when white and Asian children start to outpace their Hispanic and African-American counterparts. He speculates that IQ scores are influenced by environmental factors.

To assess whether evening the playing field for all students would change the outcome on IQ scores, Fagan and Holland studied 254 college students. Among the students were 57 males and 197 females, with 171 members from groups that usually do well on IQ tests (whites and Asians) and 83 members of groups that typically do not perform as well (Hispanics and African-Americans). The average age of the students was 26.5 years old.

One of the main features of IQ test is understanding words. "To discover if blacks and whites would differ in vocabulary knowledge following equal opportunity to learn, we taught young adults the meanings of the words," explains Fagan.

Eighty-two words were randomly selected from the dictionary. The words were chosen as ones that possibly held little meaning for students. Fagan gave the example of the word "venter," which means "belly." Then the researchers trained the students in the meaning of the words. Following a break in studying, they administered a multiple-choice vocabulary test. On the test, answers for venter appeared as candle, badge, belly, and opening. Fagan points out that "a good learner would choose belly."

He presented his research in a conference session in which Arthur Jensen, an educational psychologist from the University of California, talked about his theories suggesting that racial differences in IQ are based on intellectual abilities. "If this is so, then knowledge for word meanings learned under exactly the same conditions should differ between blacks and whites," says Fagan.

If given a chance to study the words before taking the test, Fagan says both racial groups performed at the same level with very little differences in their scores.

"Our results indicate that IQ differences between blacks and whites have to do with experience," says Fagan.

He adds that the results of the current study support the assumption that it is exposure to information, rather than intellectual ability, which accounts for IQ differences between races.

 

[dolfe1]

(sigh) I have tried to stay out of this one, mostly to avoid reading lengthy babble. First there has never been any correlations between race and intelligence found. Race and IQ, yes, there are many different kinds on intelligence. Does IQ measure one's intelligence? NO. It measures one's IQ. IQ tests have been used to support the idea that some races are inferior to others, which is retarded. "The genetic hypothesis does not imply that we should reduce our efforts to overcome other causes of inequality between people. The fact that the average IQ of one racial group is a few points higher than that of another does not allow anyone to say that all members of the higher IQ group have higher IQs than all members of the lower IQ group" "And, having a higher IQ does not justify racism or any other kind of -ism, for that matter." Peter Singer Manuel, I will try to find the time to read your post also.

 

[crewboss]

I don't see what the big debate is.

IQ incorporates both learned knowledge and inherent ability to retain knowledge. All races have the SAME ability to retain knowledge, HOWEVER some races are not currently positioned for optimal exposure to knowledge. This is the reason for the disparity in IQ scores. It's changing for the better,the IQ gap is closing, most likely one day it will disappear.