Blood Pressure and Plaque In The Arteries

[malfeasance]

So, plaque is basically irreversible.

Ghoul posted this in another thread:

I thought you'd come back with something like 120/70, which leaves some room to get into what's considered truly ideal based on current science.

But you're literally there.

Below 120/80 is now considered "normal".

Below 115/75 and plaque buildup in arteries falls off a cliff.

You're literally there.

That said, 2.5mg/5mg daily low dose Cialis is associated with a lower risk of stroke, heart attacks, and potentially prevents dementia.

Give it a month. If you get sides they almost always disappear as your body acclimates to it.

Though telmisartan won't work for you, another BP med, Minoxidil, in a microdose will not only improve the quality of your hair, but evidence is emerging it helps collagen develop in blood vessels keeping them more flexible, and therefore healthier.

A 2.5mg dose won't have any appreciable impact on your BP, and sides will almost certainly be non existent or minimal and temporary

So I went looking.

"Compared to the highest DBP tertile (>76 mmHg), those in the lowest DBP tertile (≤ 68 mmHg) had lower volumes of fatty: 10.0 vs. 7.7 mm3/mm, (p trend=0.042), fibrous: 19.6 vs. 13.8 mm3/mm (ptrend = 0.011), non-calcified: 29.7 vs. 22.5 mm3/mm (p trend=0.017) and total plaque: 37.8 vs. 25.1 mm3/mm (p trend=0.010) whereas there was no relationship with SBP tertiles. Similarly, when examined as a continuous variable, higher DBP was a significant independent predictor of higher plaque volume after multivariate adjustment: for every 1 mmHg increase in DBP, fibrous plaque increased 0.128 mm3/mm (p=0.022), noncalcified plaque increased 0.176 mm3/mm (p=0.045), calcified plaque increased 0.096 mm3/mm (p=0.001) and total plaque increased 0.249 mm3/mm (p=0.019) whereas SBP ranging from 95 to 154 mmHg did not predict plaque volume."

Diastolic blood pressure predicts coronary plaque volume in patients with coronary artery disease - PMC

Hypertension is associated with increased clinical and subclinical coronary artery disease (CAD); however, the relationship between blood pressure and coronary plaque volume is unclear. We examined the effect of systolic blood pressure (SBP) and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Since I am basically always at their highest DBP tertile, I am thinking I am screwed.

 

[Ghoul]

So, plaque is basically irreversible.

Ghoul posted this in another thread:




So I went looking.

"Compared to the highest DBP tertile (>76 mmHg), those in the lowest DBP tertile (≤ 68 mmHg) had lower volumes of fatty: 10.0 vs. 7.7 mm3/mm, (p trend=0.042), fibrous: 19.6 vs. 13.8 mm3/mm (ptrend = 0.011), non-calcified: 29.7 vs. 22.5 mm3/mm (p trend=0.017) and total plaque: 37.8 vs. 25.1 mm3/mm (p trend=0.010) whereas there was no relationship with SBP tertiles. Similarly, when examined as a continuous variable, higher DBP was a significant independent predictor of higher plaque volume after multivariate adjustment: for every 1 mmHg increase in DBP, fibrous plaque increased 0.128 mm3/mm (p=0.022), noncalcified plaque increased 0.176 mm3/mm (p=0.045), calcified plaque increased 0.096 mm3/mm (p=0.001) and total plaque increased 0.249 mm3/mm (p=0.019) whereas SBP ranging from 95 to 154 mmHg did not predict plaque volume."

Diastolic blood pressure predicts coronary plaque volume in patients with coronary artery disease - PMC

Hypertension is associated with increased clinical and subclinical coronary artery disease (CAD); however, the relationship between blood pressure and coronary plaque volume is unclear. We examined the effect of systolic blood pressure (SBP) and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Since I am basically always at their highest DBP tertile, I am thinking I am screwed.

What are your numbers now? Whatever damage occurred in the past, slowing the progression is always worthwhile.

Now I need to shoot for sub <68 diastolic...

 

[Nidus]

Regarding plaque, bp and lipids you should check out the postings from @egruberman. He has shared some really good insight and dropped a ton of knowledge across various threads. Learned a ton from him in regards to lipids!

 

[Ghoul]

Regarding plaque, bp and lipids you should check out the postings from @egruberman. He has shared some really good insight and dropped a ton of knowledge across various threads. Learned a ton from him in regards to lipids!

Yeah he's definitely on top of the lipid side of the cardiovascular health equation.

 

[Nidus]

Yeah he's definitely on top of the lipid side of the cardiovascular health side of the equation.

Running his protocol for lipid improvement together with an updated stack for Insulin Sensitivity.

10mg Ezemtib, 180mg Bempoic Acid 5mg Rosuvastin and 600mg L-Carnitin inject. daily

Will pull labs after 45-60 days and see where its at. Chronically high cholesterol and shit LDL across the family, funnily enough 250mg of Primo did not change anything. Lipoprotein A is at 7 too.

 

[egruberman]

So, plaque is basically irreversible.

Calcified plaque, perhaps, but there's plenty of evidence of plaque reduction, especially the high risk kind that is linearly correlated with LDL-C reduction:

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/12/11/2435

Atherosclerotic coronary plaque regression from lipid-lowering therapies: A meta-analysis and meta-regression - PMC

Studies reporting collective and comprehensive data on plaque regression of different lipid-lowering therapies (LLTs) are limited. We evaluated plaque regression of LLTs based on multiple markers and performed subgroup analyses based on LLT type and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Steve0691]

Calcified plaque, perhaps, but there's plenty of evidence of plaque reduction, especially the high risk kind that is linearly correlated with LDL-C reduction:

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/12/11/2435

Atherosclerotic coronary plaque regression from lipid-lowering therapies: A meta-analysis and meta-regression - PMC

Studies reporting collective and comprehensive data on plaque regression of different lipid-lowering therapies (LLTs) are limited. We evaluated plaque regression of LLTs based on multiple markers and performed subgroup analyses based on LLT type and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just one anecdotal report but ChaseIrons reduced his calcified plaque over he course of a year or so megadosing K2. But even if true, removing calcified plaque raises concerns because it stabilizes the plaque so some speculate that removing it could increase chances of plaque breaking off and causing blockage

 

[Nidus]

Just one anecdotal report but ChaseIrons reduced his calcified plaque over he course of a year or so megadosing K2. But even if true, removing calcified plaque raises concerns because it stabilizes the plaque so some speculate that removing it could increase chances of plaque breaking off and causing blockage

I think at some point egruberman also posted a few studies about it here in a different thread but i wonder same. My understanding is that once plaque is removed it leaves the blood vessels unprotected for a while as it also creates a layer like you said.

I believe chestnuts and some other plant is known for helping with that (forgot the name) but i read a while ago about it that you basically had to eat 1KG of that to get that specific benefit from vessel protection.

If anyone had more information about that, please do share!

 

[malfeasance]

Calcified plaque, perhaps, but there's plenty of evidence of plaque reduction, especially the high risk kind that is linearly correlated with LDL-C reduction:

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9059/12/11/2435

Atherosclerotic coronary plaque regression from lipid-lowering therapies: A meta-analysis and meta-regression - PMC

Studies reporting collective and comprehensive data on plaque regression of different lipid-lowering therapies (LLTs) are limited. We evaluated plaque regression of LLTs based on multiple markers and performed subgroup analyses based on LLT type and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Demi-god2]

View attachment 322192

Lookin like Low intensity Statin and Ezetimibe had the biggest impact. Am I reading that right?

My DBP often runs between 80-90mmHg despite having been on both 5mg of lisinopril and 30mg of telmisartan. Currently running 30mg telmisartan at the moment, but considering running more now that I've seen this. I was under the impression <85mmHg was ideal... The more you know!

 

[Ghoul]

Lookin like Low intensity Statin and Ezetimibe had the biggest impact. Am I reading that right?

My DBP often runs between 80-90mmHg despite having been on both 5mg of lisinopril and 30mg of telmisartan. Currently running 30mg telmisartan at the moment, but considering running more now that I've seen this. I was under the impression <85mmHg was ideal... The more you know!

There's very little to gain with Telm over 40mg, and arbs are associated with a (slightly) higher rates of cancer, when used at high doses over long periods. Since this risk is cumulative, it's probably better to stick to 40mg and add another low dose bp med, which is more effective anyway.

30mg seems like an odd dose. Is that UGL?

 

[Demi-god2]

Interesting! I had no idea about the cancer related effects. I'd love to dig into that more if you have a link or source to check out.

As for BP, I’ve got tablets that I’ve split to avoid bottoming out when switching from 5mg Lisinopril to Telmisartan. Honestly, my PCP didn’t even want to put me on BP meds... crazy, I know. I had to push for it because I'd often come in sitting close to 90 diastolic, sometimes even higher. Systolic was usually under 130. I’m also on a statin (atorvastatin) and stay on top of my cardio... actually just got back from a fasted session. Just checked my BP and it was 110/80, but I've been eye balling that ezetimibe since I've heard some positives about the cholesterol benefits.

I'm currently in prep for a show in May, so given that I’m mid-cycle, I feel like I'm in a solid spot. Still, I’m always thinking long-term and want to mitigate the risks that come with this lifestyle. Right now I’m running 450 Test, 350 Mast, 25mg Anavar, 3 IU GH daily—10 weeks out. I’ll be adding another compound or two next week. Most likely tren at 8 weeks out, titrated up, and Proviron for a mild hardener while titrating up on and dropping down on a few of the steroids I'm using. I’m expecting my BP might climb a bit at that point, so I’m keeping an eye on it.

 

[Demi-god2]

There's very little to gain with Telm over 40mg, and arbs are associated with a (slightly) higher rates of cancer, when used at high doses over long periods. Since this risk is cumulative, it's probably better to stick to 40mg and add another low dose bp med, which is more effective anyway.

30mg seems like an odd dose. Is that UGL?

Interesting! I had no idea about the cancer related effects. I'd love to dig into that more if you have a link or source to check out.

As for BP, I’ve got tablets that I’ve split to avoid bottoming out when switching from 5mg Lisinopril to Telmisartan. Honestly, my PCP didn’t even want to put me on BP meds... crazy, I know. I had to push for it because I'd often come in sitting close to 90 diastolic, sometimes even higher. Systolic was usually under 130. I’m also on a statin (atorvastatin) and stay on top of my cardio... actually just got back from a fasted session. Just checked my BP and it was 110/80, but I've been eye balling that ezetimibe since I've heard some positives about the cholesterol benefits.

I'm currently in prep for a show in May, so given that I’m mid-cycle, I feel like I'm in a solid spot. Still, I’m always thinking long-term and want to mitigate the risks that come with this lifestyle. Right now I’m running 450 Test, 350 Mast, 25mg Anavar, 3 IU GH daily—10 weeks out. I’ll be adding another compound or two next week. Most likely tren at 8 weeks out, titrated up, and Proviron for a mild hardener while titrating up on and dropping down on a few of the steroids I'm using. I’m expecting my BP might climb a bit at that point, so I’m keeping an eye on it.

 

[Ghoul]

Interesting! I had no idea about the cancer related effects. I'd love to dig into that more if you have a link or source to check out.

As for BP, I’ve got tablets that I’ve split to avoid bottoming out when switching from 5mg Lisinopril to Telmisartan. Honestly, my PCP didn’t even want to put me on BP meds... crazy, I know. I had to push for it because I'd often come in sitting close to 90 diastolic, sometimes even higher. Systolic was usually under 130. I’m also on a statin (atorvastatin) and stay on top of my cardio... actually just got back from a fasted session. Just checked my BP and it was 110/80, but I've been eye balling that ezetimibe since I've heard some positives about the cholesterol benefits.

I'm currently in prep for a show in May, so given that I’m mid-cycle, I feel like I'm in a solid spot. Still, I’m always thinking long-term and want to mitigate the risks that come with this lifestyle. Right now I’m running 450 Test, 350 Mast, 25mg Anavar, 3 IU GH daily—10 weeks out. I’ll be adding another compound or two next week. Most likely tren at 8 weeks out, titrated up, and Proviron for a mild hardener while titrating up on and dropping down on a few of the steroids I'm using. I’m expecting my BP might climb a bit at that point, so I’m keeping an eye on it.

The risk is very low, though increases with cumulative exposure.

What this really reinforces is that while a 40mg dose provides significant BP reduction, doubling the dose provides very little additional reduction, so there's no reason to increase exposure in exchange for very little benefit. A low dose of a second bp med that functions in a different way, usually a CCB being the best choice, will lower pressure far more than increasing the dose of a single med.

To further complicate things, long term Telm use is also associated with lowering cancer risks. So like many other substances there's a nuance in the risk/benefit that requires a balance in choosing the dose,

Risk of cancer with angiotensin-receptor blockers increases with increasing cumulative exposure: Meta-regression analysis of randomized trials - PubMed

Angiotensin-receptor blockers (ARBs) are a class of drugs approved for the treatment of several common conditions, such as hypertension and heart failure. Recently, regulatory agencies have started to identify possibly carcinogenic nitrosamines and azido compounds in a multitude of formulations...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

By the way, ACE class BP drugs, which had been seen as interchangeable with ARBs, are now strongly associated with increased lung cancer risks, and are quietly coming off the recommended "first line" BP med lists. I suspect they'll be phased out over the next decade. Anyone using one should consider asking to be switched to an ARB.

 

[buck]

Vitamin K2 in the form of (MK-7), nattokinase have some small studies showing they may reduce plaque. Pine bark extract and gotu cola show promise with improving the plaque in arteries.

 

[Demi-god2]

I've seen this... Pomegranate does as well. I've heard of people using high dose K2 with serrapeptase and Nattokinase, then have a Calcium score reverse. I don't know if the plaque is actually gone but the calcium in the arteries appear to be reduced.

 

[egruberman]

Lookin like Low intensity Statin and Ezetimibe had the biggest impact. Am I reading that right?

The chart is somewhat lacking in detail and paints a picture that’s a little more bleak than the data represent. It’s worth digging into either meta-analysis. In the latter, I believe, they suggest that the highest risk atheroma sees the biggest benefit in reduction which leads me to believe that the risk reduction is not well represented by the single digit reduction in plaque volume. It’s also worth noting that 70mg/dL LDL-C was the target and we know that we can get much lower than that with LLT.

 

[jtmarlin]

Running his protocol for lipid improvement together with an updated stack for Insulin Sensitivity.

10mg Ezemtib, 180mg Bempoic Acid 5mg Rosuvastin and 600mg L-Carnitin inject. daily

Will pull labs after 45-60 days and see where its at. Chronically high cholesterol and shit LDL across the family, funnily enough 250mg of Primo did not change anything. Lipoprotein A is at 7 too.

I also have a single digit Lp(a) but it didn't spare me from a calcium score at 175 at 43 years old.

 

[egruberman]

I also have a single digit Lp(a) but it didn't spare me from a calcium score at 175 at 43 years old.

Lp(a) and elevated ApoB have a whole different set of genetic influences. Lp(a) is a carrier of ApoB, but only represents a small portion of total ApoB, the rest of which is bound to LDL. I can point to the SNPs in question if that helps.

 

[Nidus]

I also have a single digit Lp(a) but it didn't spare me from a calcium score at 175 at 43 years old.

Still trying to get an appointment for mine done but hoping that my Lipids have improved much more since i started running stuff.