Bloods are in. Power PCT

[Stevo213]

Hi all,

Bloods are in. I am currently doing power PCT and have another 3 pins of 2000iu left. Got some bloods done. See below. Does anytying need to be controlled? Is prolactin high?

FSH 1.1
LH 0.3
Prolactin 242 mIU/L
Oestradiol 95 pmol/L
Testo 21.5 nmol/L
SHGB 45 nmol/L
Free Test 380 pmol/L

Will I be ok to stop the HCG after last pin and continue Serms?
Age is 26

 

[BirdieNumNum]

I'd think so.

 

[master.on]

Hi all,

Bloods are in. I am currently doing power PCT and have another 3 pins of 2000iu left. Got some bloods done. See below. Does anytying need to be controlled? Is prolactin high?

FSH 1.1
LH 0.3
Prolactin 242 mIU/L
Oestradiol 95 pmol/L
Testo 21.5 nmol/L
SHGB 45 nmol/L
Free Test 380 pmol/L

Will I be ok to stop the HCG after last pin and continue Serms?
Age is 26

Please post bloodwork along with reference ranges.

How many IUs of HCG do you inject a week?
Be careful because high HCG dosages can (and usually do) make Estradiol skyrocket.

 

[Stevo213]

@master.on see results below:

S FSH: L 1.1 IU/L ( 1.5 - 9.7 ) LH L 0.3 IU/L ( 1.8 - 9.2 ) Prolactin (Total) 242 mIU/L ( 90 - 400 ) S Oestradiol 95 pmol/L ( <160 ) S Testosterone 21.5 nmol/L ( 12.0 - 31.9 ) SHBG 45 nmol/L ( 17 - 56 ) Free Test (VC) 380 pmol/L ( 260 - 740

This was at around the 6 or 7th injection. Does this mean I pass the HCG testicular function test? @Michael Scally MD would you happen to have any input? Also, do you offer online consultations? I would like to have a chat.

 

[mands]

Hi all,

Bloods are in. I am currently doing power PCT and have another 3 pins of 2000iu left. Got some bloods done. See below. Does anytying need to be controlled? Is prolactin high?

FSH 1.1
LH 0.3
Prolactin 242 mIU/L
Oestradiol 95 pmol/L
Testo 21.5 nmol/L
SHGB 45 nmol/L
Free Test 380 pmol/L

Will I be ok to stop the HCG after last pin and continue Serms?
Age is 26

If you are doing that protocol you should know when to stop the hcg and continue with the SERMS. I guess I'm missing the question here?

All looks good to me if SERMS have not been started. No prolactin is not high.

mands

 

[master.on]

@master.on see results below:

S FSH: L 1.1 IU/L ( 1.5 - 9.7 ) LH L 0.3 IU/L ( 1.8 - 9.2 ) Prolactin (Total) 242 mIU/L ( 90 - 400 ) S Oestradiol 95 pmol/L ( <160 ) S Testosterone 21.5 nmol/L ( 12.0 - 31.9 ) SHBG 45 nmol/L ( 17 - 56 ) Free Test (VC) 380 pmol/L ( 260 - 740

This was at around the 6 or 7th injection. Does this mean I pass the HCG testicular function test? @Michael Scally MD would you happen to have any input? Also, do you offer online consultations? I would like to have a chat.

How long ago did you inject HCG and how much did you use?

IMO Free Testosterone is quite low especially considering you recently injected HCG. So if it is RELATIVELY low now despite recent HCG, it will probably drop to subnormal levels upon HCG discontinuation.
Natural Testosterone levels ALWAYS drop from those when on HCG.

So it looks like you should continue HCG.
It can take a few months.
Just don't go over 1000 IUs a week.

 

[Stevo213]

If you are doing that protocol you should know when to stop the hcg and continue with the SERMS. I guess I'm missing the question here?

All looks good to me if SERMS have not been started. No prolactin is not high.

mands

As an update I stopped HCG about 11 days ago and testicles shrunk greatly after about 4 days of stopping HCG. Strength, libido and my mood were also very shitty. It seemed like my balls were only functioning with the HCG. While I was on it they grew (but not to their full size). The question pretty much is was a 20,000iu e3d 'blast' long enough for stimulation. From what I understood in Scally's method was if test > 400 then you have passed the HCG challenge and you are good to go with SERMS.
Guys, please correct me if I am wrong!

 

[master.on]

As an update I stopped HCG about 11 days ago and testicles shrunk greatly after about 4 days of stopping HCG. Strength, libido and my mood were also very shitty. It seemed like my balls were only functioning with the HCG. While I was on it they grew (but not to their full size). The question pretty much is was a 20,000iu e3d 'blast' long enough for stimulation. From what I understood in Scally's method was if test > 400 then you have passed the HCG challenge and you are good to go with SERMS.
Guys, please correct me if I am wrong!

IMO your testis are still weak
20000 IUs is too much at once, they should have boosted your test to high or high-normal levels
your small testis further confirm you haven't properly recovered

I'd do HCG 1000 IUs/week split at least 500 IUs 2x/w even 250 IUs 4x/w if you want
for 5 weeks to empty the HCG vial and retest Testosterone and Estradiol
IMO there's no point testing for LH/FSH they are going to, and they should be temporarily low from HCG.

 

[Stevo213]

IMO your testis are still weak
20000 IUs is too much at once, they should have boosted your test to high or high-normal levels
your small testis further confirm you haven't properly recovered

I'd do HCG 1000 IUs/week split at least 500 IUs 2x/w even 250 IUs 4x/w if you want
for 5 weeks to empty the HCG vial and retest Testosterone and Estradiol
IMO there's no point testing for LH/FSH they are going to, and they should be temporarily low from HCG.

Thank you for your prompt response.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't HCG mainly replicate LH and not FSH? The Sertoli cells are stimulated by FSH and take up the bulk of testi size. How would running 5 weeks of HCG be beneficial if FSH isn't also mimicked?
Goal here is both HPTA restoration and fertility.

 

[master.on]

Thank you for your prompt response.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't HCG mainly replicate LH and not FSH? The Sertoli cells are stimulated by FSH and take up the bulk of testi size. How would running 5 weeks of HCG be beneficial if FSH isn't also mimicked?
Goal here is both HPTA restoration and fertility.

While you are right that FSH activity is also needed:

'A number of studies suggest that FSH rather than LH plays a crucial role in stimulating spermatogenesis (i.e. DNA synthesis in
spermatogonia and preleptotene spermatocytes) indirectly through the FSH receptor in Sertoli cells. Fifteen of 28 patients (54%) enrolled in our hormonal treatment protocol showed decreased FSH levels (i.e. FSH reset) after hCG treatment'
https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup...DqNV9NUDPQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

While, as expected, LH and FSH levels are TEMPORARILY reduced during HCG administration

don't forget that HCG has LH, along with some FSH activity on its own
Merck says so in the Pregnyl insert, and there are studies that prove it
'The action of HCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although HCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well.'
https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/p/pregnyl/pregnyl_pi.pdf

To properly recover both Testosterone and fertility you need them all:
1 LH
2 FSH
(HCG provides activity mimicking them both, at an affordable price, unlike pricey recombinant LH and FSH)
3 High enough doses
4 Long enough time


In a nutshell (no pun intended lol)
with 20000 IUs you had plenty LH/FSH activity yet you are still missing #4: enough time

Studies show HCG is a safe (just watch for excess Estrogen) long term drug:
Therapy with human chorionic gonadotrophin alone induces spermatogenesis in men with isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism--long-term follow-up. - PubMed - NCBI
studied for 14-120 months (up to 10 years!)

 

[eryximachus]

You do some great work here master.on. Really helping out some folks with real issues, and doing so with sound advice backed by real research. I commend you sir.

 

[Stevo213]

Understood completely now. I was under the impression that my test wasn't super high during HCG due to the fact that FSH was absent. Do you think the small amount of FSH activity from HCG is enough for spermatogensis?

This PCT has dragged on for months now as I have been trying various HCG blasts and SERM treatment. I have put a bit of weight around the mid section. Do you think running hcg 2x weekly at 500iu each shot could allow me to eat slightly below maintenance to get rid of this fat?

Once again, thank you for your time and effort!

While you are right that FSH activity is also needed:

'A number of studies suggest that FSH rather than LH plays a crucial role in stimulating spermatogenesis (i.e. DNA synthesis in
spermatogonia and preleptotene spermatocytes) indirectly through the FSH receptor in Sertoli cells. Fifteen of 28 patients (54%) enrolled in our hormonal treatment protocol showed decreased FSH levels (i.e. FSH reset) after hCG treatment'
https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup...DqNV9NUDPQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

While, as expected, LH and FSH levels are TEMPORARILY reduced during HCG administration

don't forget that HCG has LH, along with some FSH activity on its own
Merck says so in the Pregnyl insert, and there are studies that prove it
'The action of HCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although HCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well.'
https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/p/pregnyl/pregnyl_pi.pdf

To properly recover both Testosterone and fertility you need them all:
1 LH
2 FSH
(HCG provides activity mimicking them both, at an affordable price, unlike pricey recombinant LH and FSH)
3 High enough doses
4 Long enough time


In a nutshell (no pun intended lol)
with 20000 IUs you had plenty LH/FSH activity yet you are still missing #4: enough time

Studies show HCG is a safe (just watch for excess Estrogen) long term drug:
Therapy with human chorionic gonadotrophin alone induces spermatogenesis in men with isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism--long-term follow-up. - PubMed - NCBI
studied for 14-120 months (up to 10 years!)

 

[master.on]

While studies show that FSH or HMG help
it's better to try HCG first and try FSH/HMG later

besides cost issues, it is better to wait until
1 HCG raises Testosterone to high-normal (upper part of the normal range)
2 watch for Estradiol (when Testosterone levels hit high-normal, Estradiol may well shoot above normal range, thus needing an Aromatase Inhibitor)
3 when HCG brings Testosterone (and likely) Estradiol to high-normal or above you can/should dial back HCG dosage. You'd likely feel completely recovered at this point. If not see #4
4 reduced HCG dosage means reduced FSH activity, only then is FSH/HMG truly needed, in my opinion.

Be aware that in the previously mentioned study, HMG was only added after HCG didn't lead to a complete recovery by itself (most patients did well on HCG alone).

 

[Docd187123]

You do some great work here master.on. Really helping out some folks with real issues, and doing so with sound advice backed by real research. I commend you sir.

If you can't see how wrong masteron is on quite a few points and how the information he has given can be dangerous for recovery then I must say I pity you.

 

[Docd187123]

@master.on see results below:

S FSH: L 1.1 IU/L ( 1.5 - 9.7 ) LH L 0.3 IU/L ( 1.8 - 9.2 ) Prolactin (Total) 242 mIU/L ( 90 - 400 ) S Oestradiol 95 pmol/L ( <160 ) S Testosterone 21.5 nmol/L ( 12.0 - 31.9 ) SHBG 45 nmol/L ( 17 - 56 ) Free Test (VC) 380 pmol/L ( 260 - 740

This was at around the 6 or 7th injection. Does this mean I pass the HCG testicular function test? @Michael Scally MD would you happen to have any input? Also, do you offer online consultations? I would like to have a chat.

Don't listen to masteron. He's a dummy.

Yes you passed the HCG challenge with these numbers and they're fine for this stage of recovery. The next step would be to begin the SERMs and get another blood test

 

[master.on]

If you can't see how wrong masteron is on quite a few points and how the information he has given can be dangerous for recovery then I must say I pity you.

Don't listen to masteron. He's a dummy.

Yes you passed the HCG challenge with these numbers and they're fine for this stage of recovery. The next step would be to begin the SERMs and get another blood test

You're no real doctor.
You're an IMPERSONATOR.

We can't fully conclude OP passed HCG stim test:

1 'As a minimum, other androgens that should be assessed include DHT and androstenedione.'
He didn't test for that, or at least didn't mention them in his post

2 'A testosterone response to hCG may be labelled as normal if absolute testosterone concentrations reach a level that is above the upper limit of the normal prepubertal range or rise by more than twice the baseline value. '
Interpretation of the results of the human chorionic gonadotrophin... - Figure 4 of 4
This also applies to adults as Testosterone levels better reach high/high-normal (right after HCG) so they stay at acceptable levels upon HCG discontinuation.
Again HCG at sufficient doses provides a strong LH/FSH like stimulation to testicles that natural LH/FSH can't match, even with all the SERMs or AIs in the world (the pituitary can only make so much LH/FSH).

Even if he were to "pass" HCG stim test
HCG is a time-proven therapy for Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism:
To stimulate testicular function he
was given injections of HCG over the next
three months (10 000 units im weekly for one
month, 5000 units weekly for one month, and
2500 units for one month).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778/pdf/postmedj00085-0047.pdf
(In my opinion the dosages are just too high as they may raise Estrogen well above normal, but 3 month treatment looks good to me)

 

[Docd187123]

You're no real doctor.
You're an IMPERSONATOR.

We can't fully conclude OP passed HCG stim test:

1 'As a minimum, other androgens that should be assessed include DHT and androstenedione.'
He didn't test for that, or at least didn't mention them in his post

2 'A testosterone response to hCG may be labelled as normal if absolute testosterone concentrations reach a level that is above the upper limit of the normal prepubertal range or rise by more than twice the baseline value. '
Interpretation of the results of the human chorionic gonadotrophin... - Figure 4 of 4
This also applies to adults as Testosterone levels better reach high/high-normal (right after HCG) so they stay at acceptable levels upon HCG discontinuation.
Again HCG at sufficient doses provides a strong LH/FSH like stimulation to testicles that natural LH/FSH can't match, even with all the SERMs or AIs in the world (the pituitary can only make so much LH/FSH).

Even if he were to "pass" HCG stim test
HCG is a time-proven therapy for Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism:
To stimulate testicular function he
was given injections of HCG over the next
three months (10 000 units im weekly for one
month, 5000 units weekly for one month, and
2500 units for one month).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778/pdf/postmedj00085-0047.pdf
(In my opinion the dosages are just too high as they may raise Estrogen well above normal, but 3 month treatment looks good to me)

And you're not an intelligent life form so what's your point?

HCG stim is not measured with other androgen levels. The test response to the stim test should be well into the normal range which it is.

You post a n=1 case study as if that's proof of anything lol

 

[BirdieNumNum]

Doc is just but hurt that he's on trt.

 

[master.on]

And you're not an intelligent life form so what's your point?

HCG stim is not measured with other androgen levels. The test response to the stim test should be well into the normal range which it is.

You post a n=1 case study as if that's proof of anything lol

This just proves you're no real doctor.

1 Med literature says DHT (and preferably Androstenedione too) SHOULD be tested to evaluate the test.
OP didn't test for them (or didn't type results in his post) so results aren't conclusive.

2 Said med literature varies from author to author, some say the Test is passed if
A above normal
B above midrange
C levels are at least doubled
NOBODY says it's a pass if T is just anywhere in the normal range.

Insulting is easy
especially because you don't seem capable of citing any studies.

No doctor
and with that attitude you won't go anywhere in life.

 

[master.on]

As for injections
at first I was trying to pinch which proved troublesome as I have tight skin
something like

stretching skin sounds counterintuitive but it actually works better


HCG is a pretty safe drug (provided you watch for excess Estrogen) even if you hit a vein during injection (thus becoming an IV injection)
The Effect of Intravenously Administered Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin on Plasma Testosterone in Patients with Sexual Impotence and Oligozoospermia