Can someone please clarify the Dr. Scally PCT recommendations?

[lanier1974]

I'm currently on a 12wk cycle of 600mg test cyp, Proviron, Adex

1) Start the blast of HGC the day after last pin, or when exogenous test clear out?

2) Is 1000IU HCG EOD for 20 total days (10 pins) sufficient for a light cycle such as mine, or is 2000IU required?

3) Start Nolva/clomid at the same time HCG blast is begun, as soon as its finished, or a few days past finish?

4) Adex or Aromisin or no AI during PCT and tapered down for a few weeks past Nolva completion?

*Regarding point #1, true time for that ester to clear is more like 3-4weeks is it not?


Thanks y'all.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I'm currently on a 12wk cycle of 600mg test cyp, Proviron, Adex

1) Start the blast of HGC the day after last pin, or when exogenous test clear out?

2) Is 1000IU HCG EOD for 20 total days (10 pins) sufficient for a light cycle such as mine, or is 2000IU required?

3) Start Nolva/clomid at the same time HCG blast is begun, as soon as its finished, or a few days past finish?

4) Adex or Aromisin or no AI during PCT and tapered down for a few weeks past Nolva completion?

*Regarding point #1, true time for that ester to clear is more like 3-4weeks is it not?


Thanks y'all.

So, when is that? 1) Start the blast of HGC the day after last pin, or when exogenous test clear out?

hCG is NOT EOD

Why no hCG during cycle?

No AI

 

[lanier1974]

Thanks for the response Doc.

I'm confused by your answer for number 1. For the HCG blast after my cycle, shall I start HCG the day after my last test cyp injection, or approximately 3 weeks later when the ester is clear?

Above, you said HCG is not EOD, yet here:
PCT - PurePeptide.com
published in "Anabolics; 10th Edition" by William Llewellyn, you are named the key doctor in the program and it states HCD is 2000iu EOD. I'm confused.

According to that same link, SERM is also started concurrently with HCG blast. That's confusing as most recommend ending cycle, blasting HGC, then starting SERM PCT. What exactly do YOU recommend?

You ask "why no HCG on cycle?". I wanted to minimize variables. In retrospect, I should have. I'm in week seven, I may add it in. Not sure at what level/frequency is best.

Curious why no AI. Especially with HCG increasing estrogen, and rebound, and many on the forums recommending, as well as many saying you have said Aromisin is good during pct (of course Ill take the truth from the horse's mouth).

 

[SHARK1]

Whatever you do, make sure you are actually CLEARED before you start your PCT. Calculate half-lives properly and androgen build-up carefully.

 

[Dr JIM]

What is your age?

 

[lanier1974]

I'm 38.

Shark, got it.

I wish the good Dr. Scally would see fit to clarify his rather nebulous responses to my fairly direct original questions.

For that matter, can no one on this board give their simple opinions? I've read enough hundreds of hours of conflicting info.

When EXACTLY to start HCG, how much, what frequency, how long, and at what point to add SERM? It's a straight question to which there should be clear numerical answers.

Those answers are ASSUMED to be opinions based in experience, as this whole AAS rabbit hole is ever expanding territory and answers are not set in stone yet.

Instead, I'm met with silence, my questions are only answered with another question , or I'm admonished about my experience and dissected over my choices. All of that is actually appreciated, yet I'm baffled why I can get a straight answer to very straightforward,and numbered no less, questions, which we all know are opinions.

 

[Stretch]

Your questions are answered in the thread entitled "doc and BBC"

Read all of that...then PM me and I will help you, with the questions you have. I know all the searching seems pointless. When I started on these forums I knew NOTHING. People are ignoring your question because it is a question that is asked soo frequently....year in and year out.

When u say you read "alot", you mean you read for 10 hrs or so....(which is a lot)
But you need to read for 10 wks...then you will have a mild understanding of where we are coming from.

I'm not trying to add to any supposed mystique about our knowledge, however, the use of AAS is an extremely deep topic. PCT is a linked, but equally deep separate topic, don't hope to know everything EVER, hope to be competent after six months.

Get to reading, and then come back and ask ur questions....I say PM because obviously not to many here are interested in this topic, hence the slow replies. But perhaps ppl are interested and are just being slow or quiet...I will leave it up to you...but read that thread first.

 

[lanier1974]

Stretch, that is appreciated immeasurably. Frank, clear, honesty is the best.

I'm a seasoned member of other forums on other topics in health and performance, and I've always tried to help new folks who desperately ask those same important first questions. I'm a lover of knowledge and am always personally willing to help those honestly seeking themselves. I guess I expect the same.

Honestly I've been reading about 2-8 hrs a day, for more than four weeks now. Once I get involved I want to know every aspect. Admittedly I've wanted to try testosterone for many years but tried every possible natural approach first and gave it plenty of time. Years. I'm glad. I build a body and accomplished feats I'm proud of. I can now honestly try the gear.

So, I've really been researching it a lot longer, but until you get in it and feel it you don't know the right questions to ask, do you? It's not that I jumped in blindly, just that once in I knew what I needed to learn more clearly. I'm sure you understand that.

I was climbing in Thailand and all of a sudden I realized I could walk into a pharmacy and buy test. So dammit I did. And I broke through two levels of plateaus that two weeks over Xmas and New Years. Upon returning to Japan, I brought my stash and continued. I found a legal online site here for gear and kept going.

I researched pct before I ever pinned the first mL. But as you know, opinions about that are all over the board no pun intended. I gathered I needed Nolva, clomid, and AI, or all three, that I'd have to restart natty test. It wasn't until I got it in my veins that I realized I wanted to get that stuff ironed out to a tee. When. How much. How long. Exact details.

I searched expecting to find that and found the only opinion everyone agreed on is the importance of pct and the severity of the consequences of screwing it up, yet no two opinions agreeing on WHAT THAT WAY IS, and THAT scared me. It was unexpected. I even see Doc Scally contradicting himself (no offense meant).

I also didn't expect to be treated like some idiot kid getting into something serious without research or care. It's all been a bit condescending. But, I defer to those who know more, regardless of tone. I'm not insulted. Just need real answers. The nature, and responsibility of an experienced veteran is to teach the answers to those first important questions repeatedly to the never ending influx of those seeking to learn. I thought that was the point.

I will read exactly what you've recommended thoroughly and carefully. And I will take you up on your generous and appreciated offer to question over PM.

Thank you

 

[SHARK1]

I'm 38.

Shark, got it.

I wish the good Dr. Scally would see fit to clarify his rather nebulous responses to my fairly direct original questions.

For that matter, can no one on this board give their simple opinions? I've read enough hundreds of hours of conflicting info.

When EXACTLY to start HCG, how much, what frequency, how long, and at what point to add SERM? It's a straight question to which there should be clear numerical answers.

Those answers are ASSUMED to be opinions based in experience, as this whole AAS rabbit hole is ever expanding territory and answers are not set in stone yet.

Instead, I'm met with silence, my questions are only answered with another question , or I'm admonished about my experience and dissected over my choices. All of that is actually appreciated, yet I'm baffled why I can get a straight answer to very straightforward,and numbered no less, questions, which we all know are opinions.

It has to do with the fact that answering questions like yours for individuals who require what you require represent a source of income for him. There is no specific numbers for the perfect PCT, because it all depends on dosage/duration and choice of androgens used. Nonetheless, there ARE general guidelines to be followed. I'll try to answer what you're wondering off the top of my head:

1. I would blast HCG as soon as you're cleared out of all the androgens. I don't know if that's 3 weeks or not, but I don't think so. You need to calculate build up based on your dose in order to determine what is active in your system 1, 2 and 3 weeks after. Whenever that number is closer to 0, or below 50mg's of AAS, blast HCG.

2. In my opinion, 1000IU could do just fine.

3. Start Nolva/Clomid as soon as you start the HCG. Keep the HCG intermittent at 1000IUs EOD for 15 days and then finish off with Nolva and Clomid tapered down to half the initial dose of each during your 4th week. AI is used all along PCT. Tapering down is optional, sometimes when I don't taper down, E2 rebounds into gyno so I have to double-dose and then bring myself down slowly again. It depends on you and how you respond.

Also, you should be using HCG during your cycle, at 500IUs twice per week. E3D shots or so.

I have my flame vest on but, I hope I helped you.

p.s: A good poster on here whom I have a lot of respect for is Sworder, and I remember in some thread he would use Nolva along the HCG, but use clomid only after you've ceased to administer HCG. Clomid stimulates LH production as well. He never said it's bad if you run both, but he said it's a waste. I personally run them both at 100/100/100/50 and 40/40/40/20 after having blasted HCG intermittently for 15 days at 1000-15000IUs after all androgens were out of my system.

 

[Stretch]

It has to do with the fact that answering questions like yours for individuals who require what you require represent a source of income for him. There is no specific numbers for the perfect PCT, because it all depends on dosage/duration and choice of androgens used. Nonetheless, there ARE general guidelines to be followed. I'll try to answer what you're wondering off the top of my head:

1. I would blast HCG as soon as you're cleared out of all the androgens. I don't know if that's 3 weeks or not, but I don't think so. You need to calculate build up based on your dose in order to determine what is active in your system 1, 2 and 3 weeks after. Whenever that number is closer to 0, or below 50mg's of AAS, blast HCG.

2. In my opinion, 1000IU could do just fine.

3. Start Nolva/Clomid as soon as you start the HCG. Keep the HCG intermittent at 1000IUs EOD for 15 days and then finish off with Nolva and Clomid tapered down to half the initial dose of each during your 4th week. AI is used all along PCT. Tapering down is optional, sometimes when I don't taper down, E2 rebounds into gyno so I have to double-dose and then bring myself down slowly again. It depends on you and how you respond.

Also, you should be using HCG during your cycle, at 500IUs twice per week. E3D shots or so.

I have my flame vest on but, I hope I helped you.

p.s: A good poster on here whom I have a lot of respect for is Sworder, and I remember in some thread he would use Nolva along the HCG, but use clomid only after you've ceased to administer HCG. Clomid stimulates LH production as well. He never said it's bad if you run both, but he said it's a waste. I personally run them both at 100/100/100/50 and 40/40/40/20 after having blasted HCG intermittently for 15 days at 1000-15000IUs after all androgens were out of my system.

Here's another great read from back in the day. Although upon re-reading it, I make a blanket statement about doubling of a Half-Life due to injection site...no one called me on it, so I don't know if it was right or not...but I have no recollection of reading that fact. I am not a parrot, but perhaps I spouted some bro-lore....if so...that's embarrassing.


https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134288447

 

[lanier1974]

Shark, I already got it about the income bit; just didn't want to be the one calling it out as the new guy. Man has a right to make profit; that I don't begrudge. What bothers me a bit is that answers seem purposefully nebulous and sometimes misleading. I'm not going there. But it is confusing. If I had the money I'd hire him. Meanwhile, I'm a teacher and scraping by. I digress.

Shark I do appreciate those specific answers a lot. You recommend HCG blast when esters clear. Stretch mentioned that, due to the fact I've not been doing HCG on cycle to maintain, perhaps I should in fact begin after last pin to wake them boys up. Care to comment?

I've got 15000IU on hand and my only supplier is out. So whatever I do must be done with that, period. It's enough for 5000IU to be used on cycle in some manner, and 10000IU for the blast. I've already popped 2x1000IU this week to get me out of this E2 slump, as I can't take a dry firing gun!

Good note on the clomid/HCG overlap. Thanks.

Stretch, I've got an email alert of one of your posts and can read the material that way, but it has not appeared on this forum thread. Perhaps you thought better of something and deleted, or something else......?

Regarding that, nothing prevented me from using HCG on cycle; I was just not keen to try too much. I actually WAS trying to keep it simple. Many recommended Proviron be run with a test cycle. And Masteron is very similar and synergistic and doesn't shut you down hard. Something intuitive inside ne beyond reason wants DHT. Sorry, digression.

So since I didn't do that (does my current mid-cycle 1000iu 3 shots in a week wake up call count?), you are saying I should do the blast after last pin for a few weeks and then hit the SERM? Read Scally recommends 2000IU EOD x 10 shots.

So, it's HCG blast after last pin for 20 days then SERM if I haven't done on cycle HCG maintenance,

Or, blast after ester clears concurrently with SERM,

And AI concurrently with every scenario?

 

[Stretch]

Shark, I already got it about the income bit; just didn't want to be the one calling it out as the new guy. Man has a right to make profit; that I don't begrudge. What bothers me a bit is that answers seem purposefully nebulous and sometimes misleading. I'm not going there. But it is confusing. If I had the money I'd hire him. Meanwhile, I'm a teacher and scraping by. I digress.

Shark I do appreciate those specific answers a lot. You recommend HCG blast when esters clear. Stretch mentioned that, due to the fact I've not been doing HCG on cycle to maintain, perhaps I should in fact begin after last pin to wake them boys up. Care to comment?

I've got 15000IU on hand and my only supplier is out. So whatever I do must be done with that, period. It's enough for 5000IU to be used on cycle in some manner, and 10000IU for the blast. I've already popped 2x1000IU this week to get me out of this E2 slump, as I can't take a dry firing gun!

Good note on the clomid/HCG overlap. Thanks.

Stretch, I've got an email alert of one of your posts and can read the material that way, but it has not appeared on this forum thread. Perhaps you thought better of something and deleted, or something else......?

Regarding that, nothing prevented me from using HCG on cycle; I was just not keen to try too much. I actually WAS trying to keep it simple. Many recommended Proviron be run with a test cycle. And Masteron is very similar and synergistic and doesn't shut you down hard. Something intuitive inside ne beyond reason wants DHT. Sorry, digression.

So since I didn't do that (does my current mid-cycle 1000iu 3 shots in a week wake up call count?), you are saying I should do the blast after last pin for a few weeks and then hit the SERM? Read Scally recommends 2000IU EOD x 10 shots.

So, it's HCG blast after last pin for 20 days then SERM if I haven't done on cycle HCG maintenance,

Or, blast after ester clears concurrently with SERM,

And AI concurrently with every scenario?

Blast after last pin.

You really need more hCG.

hCG is suppressive so there is no reason to attempt a restart via the application of a SERM while still using hCG...run the hCG then apply the SERM after serum T levels are at or below 375.

Yes, ai concurrent only you can determine the appropriate dose/frequency given your peculiar issues.

 

[Stretch]

No, I didn't delete any comments. My comment at the end of the last page where I include the link "hcg conclusion" I had started by flaming shark a lil bit for suggesting you wait until:

"androgens have completely cleared...down to 0 or 50mg of AAS" ?!?what!?!

this is a laughable statement for obvious reasons...but I thought it unproductive and edited out the negativity, leaving behind only the link to do the correcting for me. Although now that you have asked for his further advice, something had to be said.

later he suggests that you begin hCG simultaneously with SERMs....

Again this is simply poor advice. I don't want to flame him and I hope I haven't offended him with my correction. But I also don't believe you should ask him for further advice.

 

[lanier1974]

Point taken Stretch. Most info I've read agrees with what you've said....take the HCG after last pin then hit SERM. makes sense.

I have enough for 10 x 1000IU pins; 20 days. If my supplier can get more in on time, great, otherwise ill have that.

I've read 20x500IU ED is as effective as 10x2000IU EOD. Think so?

 

[Stretch]

Point taken Stretch. Most info I've read agrees with what you've said....take the HCG after last pin then hit SERM. makes sense.

I have enough for 10 x 1000IU pins; 20 days. If my supplier can get more in on time, great, otherwise ill have that.

I've read 20x500IU ED is as effective as 10x2000IU EOD. Think so?

This is where Dr. Scally's considerable practical experience would be invaluable. And really, any answer I gave would be a guess, so I would rather not.

But I know Doc has dosed men with hpta disorders with as much as 5000iu at once....so there must be SOMETHING to the high immediate dose.

 

[Stretch]

If I was on a desert island in your position, I would determine when the optimal beginning of SERM application....

Lets say it is 4 wks away. HYPOTHETICALLY

Wk one, I would blast hCG @ 2000iu EOD for a total of 8000iu leaving you 7000 remaining iu's

Wk 2 1000iu EOD leaving you 4000iu (this 7 day period would only contain 3 injections)

day one week 3 do another 1000iu

Then finish out with 500iu until you run out on the last day of 4 weeks.....then begin SERM application.

I trust you're smart enough to determine that the math works out even if I didn't format it in the easiest way.

The logic is just to blast the nuts back to life....the try to average equal doses until you run out.

 

[lanier1974]

Crystal clear. Thanks. Ill do that unless I can score some more. And right again about the docs expertise; another reason I wish I could get a straight answer. He's got to make a living. I'm not the type to get hung up on blame or excuses, just execute and affect what I can and do my best.

Meanwhile my other red hot issue is more current....my poor damn crushed E2 and wtf to do about it.

 

[Stretch]

Careful what u say about the doc....

One of the vets tried to rip you for calling his response nebulous. But he did it in the wrong thread....not sure how he managed that.

Personally I agree, his responses do seem cryptic at times. I am not sure if he does it on purpose. Or if he is just so intellectual that he is shaking his head at us dummies, unaware how hard we are trying to understand.

Most vets forget what it was like to be new...how hard it is to search out a topic.

All the responses are written by people you don't know. Conflicting info...

For instance look at the thread I posted....the title is "DOC AND BBC". Now that thread was created years ago, and there's no way anyone would know how valuable it is by the title...and even if you did find it, most of it would go over your head without having an interpreter....

But anyways...I would never openly criticize Dr. Scally again if I was in your position, no matter how cryptic his response seemed, that is, if you plan on sticking around here...lol. You've been flamed for it and you've only made 15 posts

 

[lanier1974]

Folks getting so sensitive over a simple logical observation. Ok. Not trying be sensational.

For the record: Scally is smart, helpful, and probably the best source of the right answers on the net, maybe the subject.

I'm not much for syrup, that's just fact. That said, again, for the record, I wasn't slandering or criticizing, just stating the obvious that the initial answer to my question was hard to understand and I don't mean because it was too academic.

I have said a couple times, fair play, he's got a right to make a living and consult. Ok.

No criticism meant. He's bright and I'd be damn glad to hear the Word from the Man.

 

[lanier1974]

But I get your point stretch and consider the heads up listened to.