be careful. mirta can be really hard to get off after longer use. lunesta is a 'z' type drug, baby benzo so to speak, and can cause shitty prolonged withdrawals. not to toy with. safer pharma options are hydroxyzine or trazadone for example.
MESO-Rx
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can’t stay asleep
- Thread starter syuri
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Never heard of anyone having bad withdrawals off z drugs, not even in the same realm as benzos
Civdiv
Member
I've been following this thread pretty closely. I struggle with fragmented sleep. I'm pretty sure I only slept more than 7 hours maybe 8-10 times last year. My doc's been pretty helpful in letting me try whatever I can to get something to work. Outside of suppliments I've tried:
Agomelatine, Quviviq/Dayvigo, eszopiclone, trazodone, eszopiclone and agomelatine, and last night trazodone and mirtazapine.
That last combo of trazodone 50mg and Mirtazapine 15mg seemed to work. I'm cautiously optimistic since some of the medication provided some benefits the first night or two and then faded quickly. Last night I cleared 8 hours of sleep. Didn't feel hungover the next morning either. That's probably the first time in a year I've slept 8 hours. Looking forward to seeing if this continues.
syuri
Member
Man. Sorry you deal with the same issues, I feel you 100%. I’m extremely glad the Mirtazapine Trazodone combo helped you too, I’m planning to stick to it for the near future.
I don’t believe Mirtz loses it’s effect over time, or so I’ve read. However a dependency may arise, which, for me? If I have to take a pill or two to ensure quality sleep every night for the rest of my life, I’m doing it.
I’m shocked Dayvigo didn’t work for you, I was really looking into the Orexins… the sourcing is so hard for this stuff. I’d buy pills off my neighbor if I had to. But keep me updated with how your sleep is tonight. I appreciate a fellow half-insomniac leaving a reply
I can vouch for the persistent long term effect of mirtazapine. I've been on 45 mg for quite some time, at which dose the activating effects are supposed to overpower the somnolent ones.
I usually take it at night, but not so long ago I forgot a dose and took it in the morning. I thought it would be fine and that I was completely used to and immune from the hypnotic effects by now. I was completely wrong. Boy, did it knock me on my ass for the entire day! I was totally surprised by that.
I would also like to put in a good word for daridorexant (Quviviq) as being helpful with both getting to, and staying asleep. Not game changing, but it definitely helps. It feels more like "natural" sleepiness, rather than drug induced, if you get what I mean.
not against pharma, but got burned in the past and I have extensive experience. also have sleep issues, randomly, but mostly when my stack is off hehe. i've been using trazadone as well, and one thing i learned most drugs cause some tolerance, require upping doses and can even cause tolerance withdrawal, where you have withdrawals and feel shitty despite taking the same dose. it is best to cycle them.
i suggest to browse through this to get a better picture:
- there is true hell there, yes some are polydrugged and not everyone out there has those issues
gere is Z drug support group
benzobuddies.org
what i learned that the safest drugs which don't seem to cause tolerance are histamine targeting drugs, hydroxyzine, benadryl etc. also seroquel at low doses falls into this and is the most potent i've had. withdrawal tends to be short lived here (personal exp)
another group of helpful items are gaba'ergic herbs like passion flower/lemon balm. i used bulksupplements of those at 3-5g and they do work, and have moderate doable withdrawals
i suggest to browse through this to get a better picture:
- there is true hell there, yes some are polydrugged and not everyone out there has those issues
gere is Z drug support group
Z-Drug Support Group (Lunesta, Imovane, Zimovane, Ambien, Sonata, Zopiclone)
Thought I'd start this group because zopiclone has a very short half life compared with most benzos and likely presents different challenges in terms of tapering and withdrawal. My personal experience is that I started to feel better as soon as I started tapering. The interdose withdrawal was far...
benzobuddies.org
what i learned that the safest drugs which don't seem to cause tolerance are histamine targeting drugs, hydroxyzine, benadryl etc. also seroquel at low doses falls into this and is the most potent i've had. withdrawal tends to be short lived here (personal exp)
another group of helpful items are gaba'ergic herbs like passion flower/lemon balm. i used bulksupplements of those at 3-5g and they do work, and have moderate doable withdrawals
He brings up the data collected on SSRI recipients to point to the detrimental cardiac effects of untreated anxiety.
Also, dopamine and serotonin have a very complex, region-specific relationship in the brain. Anything that affects dopamine will affect serotonin, the question is simply the magnitude of the effect and whether it's clinically significant or essentially negligible. The dopamine-serotonin interaction can become meaningful in the context of health conditions or multiple medications, so it's something to keep in mind -- especially for people who are making choices without a doctor, which is all of us here.
syuri
Member
Thanks for your write up. This really put a smile on my face and made me feel better about sticking to Mirtazapine. It's the one thing I've tried that's helped my sleep and kept me down. How long did it take for you to up your dose?
I'll have to check out daridorexant- all the Orexins seem so hard to get. My PCP is stingy and won't prescribe em, and they most likely wouldn't be covered by my insurance.
syuri
Member
Noooooo man, my doc totally knows about all the PEDs I'm on man!
He's the one who prescribed them for me, yknow?
bananafeet
Member
Mirtazapine knocks me the fuck out. I'm currently on 60mg and 125mg of Sertraline.
Seems to make my anorgasmia managable during sex.
I have not noticed any reduced effects of Mirtazapine. Shit hits hard everytime. I end up sleeping so deeply when I wake I'm semi conscious. The intense dreams are something else.
It also lowered my RHR and now my betablocker dose is a lot lower - 25mg metoprolol vs 100mg.
The appetite stimulantion is insane tho. Definitely need a glp1.
Seems to make my anorgasmia managable during sex.
I have not noticed any reduced effects of Mirtazapine. Shit hits hard everytime. I end up sleeping so deeply when I wake I'm semi conscious. The intense dreams are something else.
It also lowered my RHR and now my betablocker dose is a lot lower - 25mg metoprolol vs 100mg.
The appetite stimulantion is insane tho. Definitely need a glp1.
syuri
Member
Haha, literally cannot thank you enough for putting me on to Mirtazapine. I consider you the Mirtaza master lmao.
Now that you mention it, even while I'm upping my test to 700 Test Prop weekly, my RHR has been somehow in the 60s... when I was on 140 Tren and 10mg Nebivolol, it was in the 80s... I never realized that until now, wow
Albeit it's been like 3-4 days on Mirtaza, but oml yeah I do feel lesser stimulation
I haven't seen much appetite stimulation (I think? I do find myself being hungry even with Tirz but it could be the AAS I assumed) but also 15mgs probably doesn't do all too much in terms of stimulating the appetite.
syuri
Member
Also- how’s the Sertraline? I up my Lexapro to 20mgs tomorrow (from 10) and might consider swapping to it in the future
I'm not strictly on mirtazapine for sleep per se, but treating insomnia was a secondary bonus, a twofer.
For just sleep, you won't need above 15 mg, unless you want the other benefits of this very handy drug as well, which I'll mention in my next post
You can get lemborexant from the Indian PCT sources in the underground section, which has a longer half life and, thus, may cause residual drowsiness the next day. I can't personally attest to that though, as I've never tried it
The way I got daridorexant from my GP was to mention that I'd tried everything regarding sleep hygiene, etc. and even the Sleepio CBTi therapy app. This satisfied the requirement for prescription, but may vary where you are/insurance
Yes, another unexpected, but welcome, benefit of mirtazapine was sexual enhancement, even in the absence of taking SSRIs! I should be a drug rep for them, this shit rules haha!
There are two components to the appetite stimulation. The first is the antihistamine effect which kicks in at very low dose and is partly responsible for the hypnotic effect as well
The second component is 5-HT2C receptor antagonism*. This doesn't kick in until about 30 mg.
So you're only getting part of the effect at 15 mg
*The opposite of this, an agonist called Lorcaserin, was developed to reduce appetite for weight loss purposes
Edit:
The appetite stimulation varies between person to person, however. For me, it was only fairly mild to begin with and I got used to it very quickly. Don't rely on mirtazapine being an appetite stimulant at higher doses. YMMV
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syuri
Member
Searched and couldn’t find much for the lemborexant, if you or someone else kind enough could lead me somewhere, I’d greatly appreciate it
Thanks for the reply BTW
Not allowed to mention sources here, but go to the Steroid Underground section and you'll find what you need there
bananafeet
Member
Fuck me there are some chemists in this thread.
This is why I keep coming back to meso.
Great info guys.
This is why I keep coming back to meso.
Great info guys.
bananafeet
Member
Sertraline is great. I'd only take it solo if it weren't for the fact the emotional numbing and dick numbing are the same receptor....
It's like you just don't give a shit. Not in a negative way but like just chilled out.
It's kind of the opposite of teenage angst.
Reminds me of the joke:
Two bulls were sitting on the top of a hill. An old bull and a young bull.
The young bull says to the elder "let's run down there and fuck some heifers!"
The old bull turns slowly and says "they are fenced in, let's walk down there and fuck all of them."
Anyway I don't know why SSRIs get so much hate.
Studying pharmacology is a bit of a pet hobby of mine
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