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Could TMG and Indolplex/DIM drive up DHT.
- Thread starter pmgamer18
- Start date
pmgamer18 said:The only thing I have added lately to my Treatment is TMG.
Supression of estrogen by the TMG could allow DHT to rise. Within limits, that could be a good thing.
frankwhardy
New Member
Hi Phil,
I think Cpeil2 has the right idea. As I've been searching through PubMed I notice that many estrogen and progestin derivatives/metabolites have at least some ability to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase (5-AR), the enzyme that converts T to DHT (and many on par with finasteride, Proscar). So if it's true that TMG (trimethylglycine) acts to help clear out estradiol/estrogen derivatives by "washing them downstream," then it may also be clearing out potentially useful naturally occuring 5-AR inibitors. So the solution may be to find a balance in the amount of TMG you're using so that you reduce your total estrogens on the one hand, but don't reduce them so much that you lose the necessary natural inhibition of 5-AR that they provide. So if you're taking 750mg of TMG per day, for example, then maybe you might try cutting it back to 250mg or 500mg, etc.
Frank
I think Cpeil2 has the right idea. As I've been searching through PubMed I notice that many estrogen and progestin derivatives/metabolites have at least some ability to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase (5-AR), the enzyme that converts T to DHT (and many on par with finasteride, Proscar). So if it's true that TMG (trimethylglycine) acts to help clear out estradiol/estrogen derivatives by "washing them downstream," then it may also be clearing out potentially useful naturally occuring 5-AR inibitors. So the solution may be to find a balance in the amount of TMG you're using so that you reduce your total estrogens on the one hand, but don't reduce them so much that you lose the necessary natural inhibition of 5-AR that they provide. So if you're taking 750mg of TMG per day, for example, then maybe you might try cutting it back to 250mg or 500mg, etc.
Frank
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PSA is dam good .83benrock said:age and hormone levels , hows the psa
On my last test my DHT was to dam high 2204 range 36 to 573 pg/mLcpeil2 said:Supression of estrogen by the TMG could allow DHT to rise. Within limits, that could be a good thing.
Frank I feel you are on to something here I have cut back on it but my Total E was down from the 400's to 135 but still high. I am cutting down on the HCG to 250 IU's so until I level off from doing that we will have to see.frankwhardy said:Hi Phil,
I think Cpeil2 has the right idea. As I've been searching through PubMed I notice that many estrogen and progestin derivatives/metabolites have at least some ability to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase (5-AR), the enzyme that converts T to DHT (and many on par with finasteride, Proscar). So if it's true that TMG (trimethylglycine) acts to help clear out estradiol/estrogen derivatives by "washing them downstream," then it may also be clearing out potentially useful naturally occuring 5-AR inibitors. So the solution may be to find a balance in the amount of TMG you're using so that you reduce your total estrogens on the one hand, but don't reduce them so much that you lose the necessary natural inhibition of 5-AR that they provide. So if you're taking 750mg of TMG per day, for example, then maybe you might try cutting it back to 250mg or 500mg, etc.
Frank
On the contrary, DIM should help.
Indole-3-carbinol byproduct acts as antiandrogen to halt prostate cancer cell growth
In a study funded in part by the National Institutes of Health, to be published in the June 6 2003 issue of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley researchers have found that a digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, which occurs naturally in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, halts the growth of prostate cancer cells in vitro. The compound, 3,3-diindolymethane (DIM), inhibits androgenic hormones that fuel prostate cancer growth. Although androgen is important for the normal development of the prostate, it is believed to be involved in the early stages of prostate cancer.
The researchers administered DIM to androgen dependent and androgen independent prostate cancer cells and found that androgen-dependent cells experienced a 70 percent reduction in growth compared to those that did not receive the compound. Androgen-independent prostate cancer cells were not affected by DIM. The scientists went on to discover that DIM inhibited dihydrotestosterone, the primary androgenic hormone that is believed to be the culprit in prostate cancer. Dihydrotesterone stimulates prostate specific antigen, or PSA, which is elevated in prostate cancer. When DIM was administered to the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells, PSA levels dropped.
A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."
Principle researcher and professor nutritional sciences and toxicology at UC Berkeley's College of Natural Resources, Leonard Bjeldanes, summarized, "As far as we know, this is the first plant-derived chemical discovered that acts as an antiandrogen. This is of considerable interest in the development of therapeutics and preventive agents for prostate cancer."
Indole-3-carbinol byproduct acts as antiandrogen to halt prostate cancer cell growth
In a study funded in part by the National Institutes of Health, to be published in the June 6 2003 issue of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley researchers have found that a digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, which occurs naturally in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, halts the growth of prostate cancer cells in vitro. The compound, 3,3-diindolymethane (DIM), inhibits androgenic hormones that fuel prostate cancer growth. Although androgen is important for the normal development of the prostate, it is believed to be involved in the early stages of prostate cancer.
The researchers administered DIM to androgen dependent and androgen independent prostate cancer cells and found that androgen-dependent cells experienced a 70 percent reduction in growth compared to those that did not receive the compound. Androgen-independent prostate cancer cells were not affected by DIM. The scientists went on to discover that DIM inhibited dihydrotestosterone, the primary androgenic hormone that is believed to be the culprit in prostate cancer. Dihydrotesterone stimulates prostate specific antigen, or PSA, which is elevated in prostate cancer. When DIM was administered to the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells, PSA levels dropped.
A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."
Principle researcher and professor nutritional sciences and toxicology at UC Berkeley's College of Natural Resources, Leonard Bjeldanes, summarized, "As far as we know, this is the first plant-derived chemical discovered that acts as an antiandrogen. This is of considerable interest in the development of therapeutics and preventive agents for prostate cancer."
Phil,
Sorry I didn't get online last couple days but wanted to get to you on this answer.
rgkstl came up with the study (see his earlier post) that I was going to look for to let you that if anything, the DIM - and probably also the TMG - would actually either slightly help with the DHT or would at least not cause a rise in it.
Do you have your DHT levels before you went on HcG and the current ones to compare? I personally believe that your rapidly increased (about doubled?) levels of Total T - and above range Free T? - have simply created a condition where you are getting a lot of T being converted to DHT. If you were not on the anti-Es that you currently are (DIM/TMG and arimidex), I believe that your E2 would be significantly higher also. So you are controlling the E2/Es to some extent, but the DHT conversion is proceeding unhindered.
One supplement that you might want to look at is discussed in this article:
http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Articles/nettles.htm
Some of the more resent research on BPH and Nettles show that Nettles can interfere or block a chemical process in the body that has been linked to prostate disorders. As men age, free-floating testosterone becomes bound to albumin in a process called human sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), removing its bioavailability to the body... In several clinical studies, nettles has demonstrated the ability to block this process which may well explain its documented effectiveness in the treatment of many prostate conditions. Since testosterone is a natural aphrodisiac, and nettles makes more testosterone bioavailable for the body's use by blocking SHBG... Another study using saw palmetto berries and nettle root extracts to treat patients with BPH showed an inhibition of the testosterone metabolites dihydrotestosterone and estrogen, thus proving to be an effective treatment... Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head.
It is my belief that use of such a substance (and one would want to specifically use a standardized extract of the nettles root) would be helpful in mild cases. I believe that your situation (while possibly finding some help with this OTC supplement) requires more dramatic action and that would be in the form of gettingyour T levels reduced down into lower, yet still optimal ranges. Possibly in the area of 900 - 1000 rather than the +1200 levels you're at.
IMHO that would allow you to better control your E2/Es elevations and drop DHT levels considerably - possibly to the range where something like nettles root extract could be a viable control aid???
Larry
Sorry I didn't get online last couple days but wanted to get to you on this answer.
rgkstl came up with the study (see his earlier post) that I was going to look for to let you that if anything, the DIM - and probably also the TMG - would actually either slightly help with the DHT or would at least not cause a rise in it.
Do you have your DHT levels before you went on HcG and the current ones to compare? I personally believe that your rapidly increased (about doubled?) levels of Total T - and above range Free T? - have simply created a condition where you are getting a lot of T being converted to DHT. If you were not on the anti-Es that you currently are (DIM/TMG and arimidex), I believe that your E2 would be significantly higher also. So you are controlling the E2/Es to some extent, but the DHT conversion is proceeding unhindered.
One supplement that you might want to look at is discussed in this article:
http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Articles/nettles.htm
Some of the more resent research on BPH and Nettles show that Nettles can interfere or block a chemical process in the body that has been linked to prostate disorders. As men age, free-floating testosterone becomes bound to albumin in a process called human sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), removing its bioavailability to the body... In several clinical studies, nettles has demonstrated the ability to block this process which may well explain its documented effectiveness in the treatment of many prostate conditions. Since testosterone is a natural aphrodisiac, and nettles makes more testosterone bioavailable for the body's use by blocking SHBG... Another study using saw palmetto berries and nettle root extracts to treat patients with BPH showed an inhibition of the testosterone metabolites dihydrotestosterone and estrogen, thus proving to be an effective treatment... Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head.
It is my belief that use of such a substance (and one would want to specifically use a standardized extract of the nettles root) would be helpful in mild cases. I believe that your situation (while possibly finding some help with this OTC supplement) requires more dramatic action and that would be in the form of gettingyour T levels reduced down into lower, yet still optimal ranges. Possibly in the area of 900 - 1000 rather than the +1200 levels you're at.
IMHO that would allow you to better control your E2/Es elevations and drop DHT levels considerably - possibly to the range where something like nettles root extract could be a viable control aid???
Larry
Vforcer2 said:TMG? What the heck is it?
Lots of previous posts on this supplement.
See: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/search.php?searchid=163554
Neat what use of the Search tool will accomplish.
Larry
Larry you made some good points and said just about the same thing my Dr. said so far the lower dose of HCG has me still feeling dam good I just went back on Saw Palmetto Complex that has the above in it. I could not post yesterday my power was out for over 28 hrs.stat1951 said:Phil,
Sorry I didn't get online last couple days but wanted to get to you on this answer.
rgkstl came up with the study (see his earlier post) that I was going to look for to let you that if anything, the DIM - and probably also the TMG - would actually either slightly help with the DHT or would at least not cause a rise in it.
Do you have your DHT levels before you went on HcG and the current ones to compare? I personally believe that your rapidly increased (about doubled?) levels of Total T - and above range Free T? - have simply created a condition where you are getting a lot of T being converted to DHT. If you were not on the anti-Es that you currently are (DIM/TMG and arimidex), I believe that your E2 would be significantly higher also. So you are controlling the E2/Es to some extent, but the DHT conversion is proceeding unhindered.
One supplement that you might want to look at is discussed in this article:
http://www.alternativehealth.com.au/Articles/nettles.htm
Some of the more resent research on BPH and Nettles show that Nettles can interfere or block a chemical process in the body that has been linked to prostate disorders. As men age, free-floating testosterone becomes bound to albumin in a process called human sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), removing its bioavailability to the body... In several clinical studies, nettles has demonstrated the ability to block this process which may well explain its documented effectiveness in the treatment of many prostate conditions. Since testosterone is a natural aphrodisiac, and nettles makes more testosterone bioavailable for the body's use by blocking SHBG... Another study using saw palmetto berries and nettle root extracts to treat patients with BPH showed an inhibition of the testosterone metabolites dihydrotestosterone and estrogen, thus proving to be an effective treatment... Nettle extracts also inhibit enzymes such as 5 alpha reductase that cause testosterone to convert to DHT. It is the DHT metabolite of testosterone that is known to cause benign prostate enlargement, excess facial hair and hair loss at the top of the head.
It is my belief that use of such a substance (and one would want to specifically use a standardized extract of the nettles root) would be helpful in mild cases. I believe that your situation (while possibly finding some help with this OTC supplement) requires more dramatic action and that would be in the form of gettingyour T levels reduced down into lower, yet still optimal ranges. Possibly in the area of 900 - 1000 rather than the +1200 levels you're at.
IMHO that would allow you to better control your E2/Es elevations and drop DHT levels considerably - possibly to the range where something like nettles root extract could be a viable control aid???
Larry
pmgamer18 said:Larry you made some good points and said just about the same thing my Dr. said so far the lower dose of HCG has me still feeling dam good I just went back on Saw Palmetto Complex that has the above in it. I could not post yesterday my power was out for over 28 hrs.
Well, the proof will be in both how you feel once stabilized at the new levels and how your numbers look. I think that your new levels will be fine (i.e., T high enough to still give you the positive effects needed - but low enough to keep E2 and DHT levels controlled).
Often we get too caught up in the conceptual theory that if X amount is good for us that then double X amount is even better. Usually - when dealing with hormones especially - there's a threshhold point where one ends up creating problems with other bodily hormones when that threshold point is crossed (even if it is still technically within some stated range).
Consider it like this. If one was low normal range one could technically be "in range"... but feel like crap. I think a lot on this Board have been there. Conversely one could be very high normal - but still technically "in range" - but have problems being created from being too high. And maybe not problems with that particular hormone, but how it affects other hormones, other systems in the body, etc. I would imagine that if one was constantly in high normal ranges with the hormone cortisol that one would find themselves experiencing a number of detrimental effects!!
Cortisol is a stress hormone helpful in modest amounts, but toxic at higher levels.
Also, with the nettles, just make sure (to give it a legitimate effort) that it is the root form of the plant and that it is an actual standardized extract (rather than simply powder root) and that you're getting a strong enough dose of it. Most multi formulas (like most prostate formulas) simply don't have enough of the product unless you're taking multiple tablets daily).
See: http://www.iherb.com/nettleroot1.html
(Standardized min. 30 ppm scopoletin)
You may also try supplementing with eta Sitosterol. I have seen claims (though not much in firmly conclusive clinical trials) that BS will also inhibit the conversion to DHT (mildly).
Larry
Phil,pmgamer18 said:The only thing I have added lately to my Treatment is TMG.
300mg of DIM and 750mg of TMG did not cause my DHT levels to go up. In fact, it went down. Here's some labs with the details:
6/28/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, 250IU hCG twice weekly, 120mg DIM daily (BioResponse formula)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total T 683 (241-827)
Free T 234 (34-194)
BioAvail T 431 (84-402)
SHBG 18 (7-50)
Estradiol Ult. Sen. 32 (13-54)
Total Estrogen 168 (130 or less)
DHT 45 (25-75)
9/6/05 - 100mg Test cyp per week, 250IU hCG twice weekly, 300mg DIM
daily (BioResponse DIM), 750mg TMG daily
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total T 625 (241-827)
Free T 216 (34-194)
BioAvail T 415 (84-402)
SHBG 17 (7-50)
Estradiol, Ult. Sen. 37 (10-50) (note the reference range has gone down while my number has gone up)
Total Estrogen 224 (130 or less)
DHT – 35 (25-75)
I stopped the DIM and TMG. Doc has put me on Arimidex, .5mg every third day to combat the high E. Seems to be helping the symptoms (water retention, tingly nipples). I get my next labs taken soon.
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earthdog said:Phil,
300mg of DIM and 750mg of TMG did not cause my DHT levels to go up. In fact, it went down.
I stopped the DIM and TMG. Doc has put me on Arimidex, .5mg every third day to combat the high E. Seems to be helping the symptoms (water retention, tingly nipples). I get my next labs taken soon.
Earthdog,
Thanks for the detailed info. Good seeing comprehensive labs to see what is going on with what. I see that you significantly increased DIM and added a good sized dose of TMG and that your E2 still increased (slightly, but still an increase).
I am beginning to think more and more that DIM / TMG are good supplements - but of mild response - and that if one wants serious E2 control that arimidex (or similar) is a need of consideration.
Larry
Right now I am doing Indolplex/DIM one 120 mg tablet and .5 mgs of Arimidex to keep my E2 down. I got a shot today and took a .5 mg Arimidex at lunch but I am going to stop after this one and see if the lower dose of HCG helps with the E2. I stopped the TMG to see what happens on my next test. I don't feel the high DHT in my prostate yet. Every thing is working good and I still feel good.
So far lowing my HCG has not helped with my high E2 I am now doing one pill of Indolopex/DIM and taking one mg. of Arimidex a day. To keep my E2 down I stopped the TMG after my last test to see if my Total E goes up and my DHT comes down. I do my next blood test next week Tue. and will see the results in two weeks. I only know of one person that took one mg. of Arimidex a day. This is scaring the crap out of me. I know I am not to low it is hard to keep it down.
Phil
Phil
pmgamer18 said:So far lowing my HCG has not helped with my high E2 I am now doing one pill of Indolopex/DIM and taking one mg. of Arimidex a day. To keep my E2 down I stopped the TMG after my last test to see if my Total E goes up and my DHT comes down. I do my next blood test next week Tue. and will see the results in two weeks. I only know of one person that took one mg. of Arimidex a day. This is scaring the crap out of me. I know I am not to low it is hard to keep it down.
Phil
Damn Phil...1mg a day?!?!?! I would be concerned too!
I know folks say that Indolopex/DIM is more readily absorbed than regular DIM, but how much more? I take more along the lines of 600mg-800mg of regular DIM and guys seem to be getting results from one pill of Indolopex/DIM, which has a hell of lot less than 800mg. I have also been taking TMG.
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My Dr. feels that with the weight I have lost and the muscle I have gained working out 3 days a week that my T levels are now to high and converting into E2. I have cut the dose of HCG two weeks ago from 500 IU's 3 times a week to 250 IU's 2 times week. Yet my E2 is still on a roll.
pmgamer18 said:So far lowing my HCG has not helped with my high E2 I am now doing one pill of Indolopex/DIM and taking one mg. of Arimidex a day. To keep my E2 down I stopped the TMG after my last test to see if my Total E goes up and my DHT comes down. I do my next blood test next week Tue. and will see the results in two weeks. I only know of one person that took one mg. of Arimidex a day. This is scaring the crap out of me. I know I am not to low it is hard to keep it down.
Phil
Sounds like reducing Test Cyp from 150 mg weekly to 100 mg weekly might be the next step to try?
What was your actual most recent E2 level (in what range) and how long ago was that? I thought that it really wasn't that high of a level was it? In fact wasn't the E2 still within the reference range (yeah, somewaht above "optimal levels", but would be surprised that non elevated E2 levels 0 if my memory is correct - would be causing such severe symptoms)....
Larry
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