Crossfit (not that theres anything wrong with it)

Me too!!! I heard Lu just got popped recently, pee or blood tested dirty. Don't know if they're gonna pull his gold medal.

I bet he's on TP or HK HGH LOL! In fact their lab is just across the street from that training hall.

Lol, If I had to take a guess I would say that the Chinese aren't putting their own competitors on generics. That would be hilarious if the Chinese olympic team coaches are playing the generic game for their athletes though.

I absolutely love it when athletes at the Olympics look straight up freaky looking. It's like a walking testament to how ineffective drug testing truly is, at a venue where a ridiculous sum of money and resources is put on drug testing. Brings a smile to my face every time I see it.

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In regards to complexes, they are a Olympic Weightlifting modality used to break down the lifts into more manageable chunks to perfect areas of your technique that are lacking. The Oly lifts are so technical it takes a lifetime to perfect.

The lay person doesn't realize that Oly lifting is more ballet than strength. Yes you have to be strong as fuck but you have to also be able to do a pirouette in a singlet and tutu. OK maybe not the tutu...you get the picture.
 
Times are changing that's for sure.
But the only thing that's not training is the sheer output of a Tier 1-2 guy vs a crossfit individual. Come to find out I'm Crossfit ?!?!? Fuck that, applied power push ups, sit ups, pull ups, running 10 clicks, and then putting on a rucksack with 50 lbs of gear and going 12-15 miles. I'm a firm believer that the Crossfit has it's place which is in the mainstream world. Training for War, working on agility, stamina, endurance, and keeping your cool when shit hit's the fan, that's just another day in the mix. They are on the right track, in my opinion most bang for the buck, but what a 18 series guy has it's a little bit more then just being able to march 100 clicks under 24 hours non stop.
 
Times are changing that's for sure.
But the only thing that's not training is the sheer output of a Tier 1-2 guy vs a crossfit individual. Come to find out I'm Crossfit ?!?!? Fuck that, applied power push ups, sit ups, pull ups, running 10 clicks, and then putting on a rucksack with 50 lbs of gear and going 12-15 miles. I'm a firm believer that the Crossfit has it's place which is in the mainstream world. Training for War, working on agility, stamina, endurance, and keeping your cool when shit hit's the fan, that's just another day in the mix. They are on the right track, in my opinion most bang for the buck, but what a 18 series guy has it's a little bit more then just being able to march 100 clicks under 24 hours non stop.
no no no...see you're not understanding Spart.
You see it's only "crossfit" when you pay THEM :D
 
IMHO they're "ie Crossfit HQ" is trying to jack the best modalities from everyone. Cherry picking as they please from Oly, Gymnastics, Endurance, Paramilitary, Powerlifting, Strongman, Figure Skating, Synchronized Swimming, etc.

Problem is their end goal is "fittest on earth" whatever the hell that is.

It comes down to training philosophy. I ask all my athletes "what the hell are you doing this for?" Because if it's not for glory, country and pussy you could be spending your life doing something better.
 
In regards to complexes, they are a Olympic Weightlifting modality used to break down the lifts into more manageable chunks to perfect areas of your technique that are lacking. The Oly lifts are so technical it takes a lifetime to perfect.

The lay person doesn't realize that Oly lifting is more ballet than strength. Yes you have to be strong as fuck but you have to also be able to do a pirouette in a singlet and tutu. OK maybe not the tutu...you get the picture.

What would you say are some decent strength standards to be at before someone decides to start practicing Clean and Jerk and Snatch?

Lets assume this individual has a legit weightlifting coach to teach them the movements but does his own programming, is there a certain place he should be at strength wise on certain movements before he starts practicing the lifts, or parts of the lifts?

I'm guessing front squat, ohead squat , standing press, and vertical pulls have the most carryover to the olympic lifts.
 
What would you say are some decent strength standards to be at before someone decides to start practicing Clean and Jerk and Snatch?

Lets assume this individual has a legit weightlifting coach to teach them the movements but does his own programming, is there a certain place he should be at strength wise on certain movements before he starts practicing the lifts, or parts of the lifts?

I'm guessing front squat, ohead squat , standing press, and vertical pulls have the most carryover to the olympic lifts.
i'm no coach so take this for what it's worth, but i only started doing power cleans a few months ago and holy shit am I kicking myself for not starting them earlier in my lifting career. There's no doubt in my mind i would be noticably more explosive and athletic had i started them even a year sooner, let alone 2.

As for the minimum strength standards thing, i would suggest to start practicing the oly lifts at a light weight to practice technique first, and i would say start whenever you'd feel comfortable.
 
i'm no coach so take this for what it's worth, but i only started doing power cleans a few months ago and holy shit am I kicking myself for not starting them earlier in my lifting career. There's no doubt in my mind i would be noticably more explosive and athletic had i started them even a year sooner, let alone 2.

As for the minimum strength standards thing, i would suggest to start practicing the oly lifts at a light weight to practice technique first, and i would say start whenever you'd feel comfortable.

Power cleans are amazing for athletes competing in sports, actually I think Bill Starr preferred Power Cleans over deadlifts for athletes, but deadlifts are obviously much easier to teach to newer lifters so they became more commonly used in 5x5 programs.

I have also heard that some strength coaches for contact sports like Football don't include deadlifts in their programming simply because it doesn't have as much carryover on the field, compared to simply doing more pressing movements for example. So from that point of view it just creates unnecessary fatigue. Power cleans in a lot of scenarios would probably be a lot more ideal for athletes competing in sports.
 
Power cleans are amazing for athletes competing in sports, actually I think Bill Starr preferred Power Cleans over deadlifts for athletes, but deadlifts are obviously much easier to teach to newer lifters so they became more commonly used in 5x5 programs.

I have also heard that some strength coaches for contact sports like Football don't include deadlifts in their programming simply because it doesn't have as much carryover on the field, compared to simply doing more pressing movements for example. So from that point of view it just creates unnecessary fatigue. Power cleans in a lot of scenarios would probably be a lot more ideal for athletes competing in sports.
absolutely. A lot of professional level strength and conditioning coaches don't like deads for field athletes, and i understand that mentality, but in my opinion, including deads in your training as an athlete is important to prevent injury. Having a strong and developed posterior chain balanced, with the strong pushing muscles, is going to make it much less likely for someone to pull a hammy or something similar in nature.

I certainly wouldn't have myself or any other field athlete do deads at a high frequency like a powerlifter or even bodybuilder would, because that would make overall weekly recovery much more difficult. I've found that one heavy, max effort set of deadlifts once a week works great for me though. Not too much but enough to make progress on the lift while allowing me to still squat at a high frequency and get my power cleans in also.

I know that some top level strength coaches advocate this kind of training and i'm extremely happy with the progress i've made without drugs doing this.
 
This is just coach romaleos speaking so please take it with a grain of salt. In a recent seminar, Donny Shankle concurs.

Strength standards are fine but first and foremost the key to Olympic weightlifting are the mobility standards. If you can't get into the positions then you will only be tempting injury. And mind you it is possible to scale the movements such as power cleans and snatches and still reap the benefits of training hip explosion.

So my standards for full ROM weightlifting are:

1) Squat ATG with a vertical spine in the hole. A good test of this ability is to stand 3" from a wall and perform an air squat ATG.

2) The ATG position should be as comfortable as a chair to you. With your heels flat and spine vertical you should be able to hold the position relaxed for 5 minutes plus.

3) In above position, perform behind neck presses with empty bar for 10 reps. This is the Sotts press.

4) Have the balance to perform one legged squats aka pistols without any support or holding your free leg.

5) Overhead lunges with a 45lb plate for 200m.

Weight will come once technique is adequate. @ruckin is right, start light and comfortable. And I highly recommend a coach. As much as possible don't oly lift alone so you have someone to check your form.

Good luck becoming a beast!

What would you say are some decent strength standards to be at before someone decides to start practicing Clean and Jerk and Snatch?

Lets assume this individual has a legit weightlifting coach to teach them the movements but does his own programming, is there a certain place he should be at strength wise on certain movements before he starts practicing the lifts, or parts of the lifts?

I'm guessing front squat, ohead squat , standing press, and vertical pulls have the most carryover to the olympic lifts.
 
Another thing when you start to learn the lifts.

Learn each pull in this order: 2nd, 3rd, finally 1st. So hip explosion, then pull under/catch, and finally from the ground.

The 1st pull is NOT a deadlift. The 2nd pull is the most important, in the beginning only work from the hang or with blocks no lower than the knees. The 3rd pull do a ton of snatch balances.

Learn the snatch first, then the clean, and finally the jerk. The jerk will be the hardest to figure out if you are not athletically gifted.

Insist on learning a catapulting style from your coach. Research coach Don McCauley.
 
Another thing when you start to learn the lifts.

Learn each pull in this order: 2nd, 3rd, finally 1st. So hip explosion, then pull under/catch, and finally from the ground.

The 1st pull is NOT a deadlift. The 2nd pull is the most important, in the beginning only work from the hang or with blocks no lower than the knees. The 3rd pull do a ton of snatch balances.

Learn the snatch first, then the clean, and finally the jerk. The jerk will be the hardest to figure out if you are not athletically gifted.

Insist on learning a catapulting style from your coach. Research coach Don McCauley.

Excellent advice, I will keep working on my mobility and when I feel adept enough and loose enough I will use the ordering you listed here when practicing the movements. I appreciate the input as usual.
 
Lots of knowledge in here. So just being devil's advocate, can someone explain to me the reasoning behind taking highly technical and complex oly lifts and doing AMRAP in a short period of time? Seems like the perfect way to throw form and safety out the window and get injured. I personally know half a dozen former "crossfitters" who have been injured using this genius approach. I'm a bit biased, but I would like an answer, no one seems to be able to give me a decent articulated rationale behind, for example, doing power cleans as fast as possible.
 
I would have to say anyone lifting anything wether it be oly powerlifting..body building...crossfit or joe schmo in the gym should always try to keep good form...does it happen in any lifting sport?? answer is No...
 
lifting super heavy with fatigue and falling out of good form you risk injury...doing crossfit at a moderate weight quickly and timed you have the same thing fatigue and falling out of good form and injury risk...
 
This is a tough issue that I battle when going into the gym and a very valid argument against Crossfit. Let's look at it from both sides.

First why it's bad. Obviously it is the fast track to injury. When in a fatigue state and under time duress, form goes out the window and one resorts to any means to move a weight. Doing highly technical moves in such a state also reinforces bad motor patters (bad habits) that will remain in non fatigued form. Finally you are bastardizing a movement that takes a lifetime to perfect.

Now the benefits not necessarily why it's acceptable. Although the fast track to injury, it is also the fast track to gains. You will not stress both neuromuscular and skeletal muscular systems as effectively into adaptation under any other form of training. More pain resulting in more more gain. It also takes 10,000 reps to master movement pattern. High reps will get you there faster if proper form is maintained.

The problem 99% of the time is that coaches and athletes do not know where the line between gains and injury are. You are straight up playing with fire. You will get burned. I am one of those guys.

IMHO only trained firemen should be allowed to play with fire. Unless an athlete can demonstrate correct form and has enough experience with their limits should they be allowed to go balls out on an oly move.

Proper coaching is mandatory. The coach has to be able to visually recognize when an athlete has crossed the line into the danger zone and push the eject button. The coach also has to have knowledge of an athlete within a few reps to know how to scale a movement for an athlete.

For example, I would not let a beginner do a clean or snatch amrap from the ground. Until they can display proficiency of the second pull from the hang, why add more complexity into their skill development? I wouldn't even let them catch in a squat and keep the weight light enough for a power variation. So strictly 2nd pull work. And if they are really awkward with the barbell they are doing kettlebell swings instead.

Finally there must be humility on both coach and athlete. Check the ego at the door. Better to fight another day than lay it all on the line for a workout. Now at a regional or games competition is another story. You are doing it for glory, country and pussy at that point. Might as well lay it all on the line.

There is a smart way to do Crossfit. But unfortunately any idiot with $1000, a weekend, and half a brain can get a tshirt and piece of paper that says they can open a gym to coach people to do high rep Olympic movements.

I was one of those guys. Then I had an epiphany to learn as much about training as I could just so I wouldn't hurt myself but more so to be able to walk on the razors edge between injury and super compensation. And thus maximizing my human genetic potential.

Short answer: find good coaching, know what you are getting into and buy into it.

Lots of knowledge in here. So just being devil's advocate, can someone explain to me the reasoning behind taking highly technical and complex oly lifts and doing AMRAP in a short period of time? Seems like the perfect way to throw form and safety out the window and get injured. I personally know half a dozen former "crossfitters" who have been injured using this genius approach. I'm a bit biased, but I would like an answer, no one seems to be able to give me a decent articulated rationale behind, for example, doing power cleans as fast as possible.
 
@romaleos do you think it would be a good idea to start practicing the OLY lifts with light weight on the days I don't lift for a few months, until I'm confident enough in my technique to incorporate them (with heavier weights) into my regular training schedule?

I'll need to start thinking about how to incorporate them into my regular lifting schedule in the mean time.

I finish school/finals in about a week so I'll have much more time to devote to this over Christmas break and the start of next semester.
 
@ruckin sounds like a plan. Make sure you have proper facilities and equipment. Mainly oly platform and bumper plates.

If you can't find coaching, next best thing is to get coach's eye for your phone and film your lifts. Also buy and study Greg Everett's and Don McCauley's books and DVDs.

Watch a lot of videos on YouTube. Lookup Hookgrip. He has great vids, mostly slow mo from comps though.
 
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