Deca and Finasteride

[Jbagel132]

Is it true that running deca while on finasteride actually exacerbates hair loss?

 

[creatine acetate]

Yes. 5α-reduced nandrolone is less androgenic, or at least less "hair damaging" than nandrolone.

 

[TheRingloVale]

Creatine acetate is correct

 

[Jbagel132]

I thought that it was actually nandrolone and NOT DHN that was more androgenic, leading to more hair loss…

 

[TheRingloVale]

I thought that it was actually nandrolone and NOT DHN that was more androgenic, leading to more hair loss…

That's right. If there's no 5ar (from finasteride) then there's no DHN. There's only nanadrolone and that's worse than dhn for your hair.

 

[Jbagel132]

That's right. If there's no 5ar (from finasteride) then there's no DHN. There's only nanadrolone and that's worse than dhn for your hair.

But finasteride restricts 5ar…

 

[TheRingloVale]

But finasteride restricts 5ar…

Right, so it makes deca worse on your hair than it would have otherwise been

 

[null88]

Has anyone experienced hair shedding while running nandrolone and finasteride or is this all hypothetical

 

[Jbagel132]

Has anyone experienced hair shedding while running nandrolone and finasteride or is this all hypothetical

I wondered the same, not to mention it’s safe to say everyone who’s running nand is also running test, whether low or high. So even if deca is hair-safe, it’s irrelevant cause test is not. If you choose not to run fina cause deca is hair-safe, you will still be fucked cause test is not.

And before anyone mentions it, I’ve been on finasteride for almost 4 years and my dick has worked everyday that I’ve been on it. So the sides for me aren’t there.

 

[Para_33]

I’ve run Deca and estrogen. So

I wondered the same, not to mention it’s safe to say everyone who’s running nand is also running test, whether low or high. So even if deca is hair-safe, it’s irrelevant cause test is not. If you choose not to run fina cause deca is hair-safe, you will still be fucked cause test is not.

And before anyone mentions it, I’ve been on finasteride for almost 4 years and my dick has worked everyday that I’ve been on it. So the sides for me aren’t there.

I’ve run Deca with Estrogen and no test to support the most luscious locks possible. I also felt perfectly the same on nandrolone only with estrsdiol and no test as I did with 600 test 700 deca. I then dropped the test to 90mg Testosterone prop per week and bumped the Deca to 1050mg. And then 3 weeks later I dropped the test all together and kept the deca at 1050 and added in injectable estradiol valerate to get the same E2 level serum wise I normally feel good at. I didn’t notice anything- except when I would take this random Testosterone gel I had laying around or testosterone suspension- they acted like the strongest pre workout androgens I’ve ever experienced. I attribute this to going from almost no DHT to supraphyiological DHT in the matter of half a day. Since the gel/suspension kicks in so quickly. The transdermal gel is actually much stronger in this regard since skin contains higher levels of 5AR- so if you apply that shit to your nuts which have even higher 5-AR, than you get even more DHT production ratio.

Or also, you could pull the finasteride and use a low dose of test that’s just enough to provide adequate amortization and use Deca to make up the rest. In that case this still might be more hair safe if the total concentration of DHT is the same with the reduced dose of test. Because finasteride only Inhibits about 70% of DHT production.

So if that 70% DHT is from 1000mg Test, you’d probably still have less DHT if you dropped that dose down to 90-100mg Testosterone and instead added a blast dose of nandrolone for example.

 

[null88]

does 1050mg of deca not provide enough estrogen?

 

[Para_33]

does 1050mg of deca not provide enough estrogen?

I didn’t for me and for everyone else who I saw. Usually it would be like 10-20pg/ml.

Deca does increase the aromatization rate of testosterone and other aromatizeable compunds, however it itself does not amortize very much.

It can actually be used in a contest prep setting for me personally for that reason because how dry it has the potential to be when not run with testosterone.

 

[connoristiny]

I wondered the same, not to mention it’s safe to say everyone who’s running nand is also running test, whether low or high. So even if deca is hair-safe, it’s irrelevant cause test is not. If you choose not to run fina cause deca is hair-safe, you will still be fucked cause test is not.

And before anyone mentions it, I’ve been on finasteride for almost 4 years and my dick has worked everyday that I’ve been on it. So the sides for me aren’t there.

Has anyone experienced hair shedding while running nandrolone and finasteride or is this all hypothetical

Yeah, have not really seen the deca-fina theory play out in real life.

 

[newbie]

I also heard somewhere that only about 10% of deca gets converted to DHN in presence of 5-ar. If this is true, then inhibiting 5-ar shouldn't make any big difference about hairloss due deca. However that was just some claim from some random dude, I don't know if it is true. If anybody have any information about that I would appreciate it.

 

[Type-IIx]

I also heard somewhere that only about 10% of deca gets converted to DHN in presence of 5-ar. If this is true, then inhibiting 5-ar shouldn't make any big difference about hairloss due deca. However that was just some claim from some random dude, I don't know if it is true. If anybody have any information about that I would appreciate it.

So, same as testosterone (exactly what we'd expect). Anyway, 5-AR inhibition does theoretically worsen hair loss with nandrolone.

 

[newbie]

So, same as testosterone (exactly what we'd expect). Anyway, 5-AR inhibition does theoretically worsen hair loss with nandrolone.

This is what that guy posted on reddit:

"nandrolone converts to DHN at a very low rate 5-10%, so inhibiting it with fin or dut makes a negligible difference.

you'll simply have a bit more nandrolone running in your system.

there's not much of a reason to use fin/dut with nandrolone, but if you do it doesn't make much of a difference because nandrolone already binds to many of these rich androgen receptor sites in tissue because of its incredibly high binding affinity.

hence the reason why it shows such "high androgenic activity", because it has a very strong binding affinity to tissue, even more than testosterone,dht,dhn. where as it's also 3x less androgenic than testosterone.

so, if it is 3x less androgenic than testosterone and all it does is bind to these receptors at a higher rate, why is everyone worrying? lol, doesn't make much sense.

so there's nothing to worry about regarding hairloss or prostate health, you can literally use a 5ar inhibitor with nandrolone and experience no issues.

unfortunately this is what happens when you're a popular credited youtuber and you misunderstand studies and spread this stupid myth that nandrolone + 5ar inhibitor is bad,

in practical application it isn't."
Source

So if this is true, we are only talking about extra 5-10% of nandrolone in your system if finasteride is used and it really doesn't make any sense why anybody is so worried.

 

[Type-IIx]

I am not in the habit of defending/attacking others' arguments; if he makes a claim that you want to dispute, ask him to defend himself.

I never said it was a practical concern, just that theoretically a 5AR inhibitor is worse for hair loss with Deca in isolation.

I have written previously about this, and given illustrative examples of use cases for/against 5AR use with Deca.

OK @jJjburton after thinking about this question a bit more, I should modify my earlier statement to make a correction, and to include some context. I try to admit when I’m wrong, so I should state that indeed, nandrolone + 5AR inhibitor use is probably worse than foregoing 5AR inhibitor use in some very select few cases that occur in practice (but this has naught to do with MPMD’s castrated rat prostate size graph).

It is true that inhibiting 5AR of nandrolone logically increases the net flux towards greater concentrations of reactant – the more potent nandrolone – and rationally would seem to decrease the relative concentrations of the weakened DHN with respect to nandrolone. The anticipated consequence of this (though there is a dearth of studies that actually assess human 5AR inhibitor use with nandrolone and effects on hair loss) is that 5ARs (e.g., finasteride, dutasteride) may make hair loss worse in very specific scenarios that I will attempt to illustrate:

✓ Scenario A: Deca + Test (low-medium dose), e.g., 200 mg nandrolone + 250 mg testosterone enanthate weekly...

* 5AR inhibitor use is rational for hair loss prone individuals (due to amplification of T by 5AR, and not quite profound direct nandrolone effects given low-medium doses).

✓ Scenario B: 750 mg nandrolone + 600 mg testosterone enanthate + 450 mg trenbolone + ….

* 5AR inhibitor (topical) use + more advanced hair loss preventive methods are rational (but with anticipated reduced efficacy vs. low dose/endogenous T) for hair loss prone individuals (due to amplification of T by 5AR).

These and various permutations in their themes are the norm for bodybuilding cycle designs in practice. Since Testosterone is a) supportive of sexual function, and b) synergistic (coupled with other AAS) in its anabolic effects by modulating total-body growth a la IGF-I, etc., it is rarely seen in practice that the next scenarios are encountered:

✖ Scenario C: 300 - 400 mg nandrolone + 10 mg daily metandienone (Dianabol):

Here, we have a scenario (low-medium dose nandrolone + a non-5α-reducible drug that supports sexual function and provides IGF-I augmentation via its aromatization sans testosterone) where abstaining from 5AR inhibitor use for the very reason that it is likely (but not assured) to worsen hair loss is seemingly rational. And yet still, it is quite possible that 10 mg daily metandienone so potently induces hair loss in itself that it supersedes any relevance of nandrolone & DHN, regardless of its non-5α-reducibility.

✖ Scenario D: 1500 mg or higher nandrolone weekly (i.e., “Deca only”) [i.e., high dose necessary to sustain low-normal E2, augment IGF-I, support sexual function, etc.]

The assumptions of these scenarios are that cycle design is always rationally directed towards the use of compounds that: I) provide for an increase to IGF-I, II) support basal estrogenic activity & III) sexual function in men.

Even here, where 5AR inhibitor use is ostensibly most irrational for hair loss prone individuals, it is unclear whether such high doses of nandrolone actually effect hair loss differently given 5AR to DHN versus antagonism thereof by dutasteride or finasteride, because of the increased hair loss resulting from the high levels of nandrolone itself (potentially greater than T amplification to DHT at approximately endogenous or low-medium dose concentrations where 5AR inhibitors are most effective).

MPMD
@Blueman

Derek from MPMD’s extrapolation from growth of rodent ventral prostate to hair loss in humans is entirely untenable.

Despite the constellation of “androgenic” effects, that includes prostate size increases & hair loss, Derek’s use of a graph from Sundaram & colleagues measuring ventral prostate size in castrated rats is inapposite the topic of hair loss in man.

Growth (a biological effect) of (castrated) rat ventral prostate epithelial cells (hypertrophy/size ↑ and/or hyperplasia/# ↑) is qualitatively distinct,to hair loss (a different biological effect) in human dermal papilla cells. Hair loss in human dermal papilla cells is affected by ROS homeostasis, where androgens (but not testosterone†) cause an increase in reactive oxygen species, thereby ↑TGF-β1 secretion – stimulating procollagenous activity & hair loss. This is at best only related tangentially and in small part to hypertrophic or hyperplastic mechanisms in prostate epithelial cells.

†: Interestingly, if we could hypothetically completely blockade 5AR, testosterone would be the most hair safe compound that we know of, because it has been shown to not affect hair loss in scalp.

 

[KeenObserver]

There's an on paper theory for that being true but in the real world it's pretty much bullshit.

I've talked to doctors specialising in hair loss as well as a lot of people who blast and cruise and are on finasteride for life and they say there's no real world evidence and it's never actually been observed to be true.

To be safe you would run testosterone higher than the deca, which is what 90% of people would be doing by default regardless. And you may not even NEED to do that. Deca + fin does not accelerate hair loss.

It's the same with people thinking deca shuts you down for a long time using it and you can't PCT from it as it would take 12+ months since the metabolites stick around in your system for that long. Again there's a slight base for the theory to be true, but in reality it doesn't do shit since the concentration of the metabolites that stick around is not significant enough to actually keep you shut down for a year.

Even in 2023 where we know as much as we ever have about this shit, there's still a lot of common ideas passed around that have just been accepted but are actually completely wrong.

 

[bornSkinny]

I have mpb and have run deca with fina for literally years.

Although on paper it should I can tell you in practice it doesn’t for me at all. Juxtaposed with mast or primo which do seem to accelerate the mpb, in small doses.

In addition to fina, I also use keto shampoo and minaxadill daily.

In my experience deca doesn’t do anything to my hairline.

 

[may2021]

I am not in the habit of defending/attacking others' arguments; if he makes a claim that you want to dispute, ask him to defend himself.

I never said it was a practical concern, just that theoretically a 5AR inhibitor is worse for hair loss with Deca in isolation.

I have written previously about this, and given illustrative examples of use cases for/against 5AR use with Deca.

Deca and NPP are interchangeable here?
Thanks bro