Degradation

[grey]

I think the practice of usually not storing stuff on light might be helping a lot

I think this is spot on.

Once in oil the free oxygen content in a vial likely would contribute significantly too....

A vial of oil that has never been punctured is likely to keep in a dark place at a consistent temp for a VERY long time before the content has degraded to even say 70% efficacy.

Let light, air, and temperature fluctuations in there though and everything is going to accelerate.

 

[janoshik]

I think this is spot on.

Once in oil the free oxygen content in a vial likely would contribute significantly too....

A vial of oil that has never been punctured is likely to keep in a dark place at a consistent temp for a VERY long time before the content has degraded to even say 70% efficacy.

Let light, air, and temperature fluctuations in there though and everything is going to accelerate.

Yep, though there's bunch of stuff that goes wrong with oils (BA, BB, fatty acids, peroxides etc) too after two-three years.

To be honest I never really studied degradation too much so I was going mostly by hypotheses, don't think there's much data to the topic.

 

[janoshik]

I understand that a long ester like enanthate, decanoate, undecanoate will easily come apart, but surely the 60% of base hormone stays intact or does that also fall apart easily due to the chemical process of adding esters?

Well, as I've said previously - with eg. tren it's proved by my data that the "base" molecule is getting all sorts of fucked up (though that part of data was not posted, as I'd rather shoot myself in the leg than export entire spectrums for each peak). Testosterones and all steroids with same A ring are... well susceptible to photolytically catalyzed A ring breakdown if I recall that part correctly (which again, is a part of the "base" molecule).

 

[janoshik]

One other question.

I've got vials of base and acetate brews where they have crashed. The crystals look the same as they did from years ago. I've got acetate brews from 5 years back and the crashed square crystals are still sitting at the bottom of the vials until I chose to use them by rewarming.

Would this still be degraded?

*shrug* guess so

 

[xvdreQ]

Yep, though there's bunch of stuff that goes wrong with oils (BA, BB, fatty acids, peroxides etc) too after two-three years.

To be honest I never really studied degradation too much so I was going mostly by hypotheses, don't think there's much data to the topic.

I've known that the shelf life of BB and BA are very short. It's one of the reasons I use very little solvents in my brews and why I switched over to Mig840.

A saturated oil like Mig840 I was hoping would have a longer shelf life and I just add 1% BA.

Aside from that my vials and raws are always protected from light and temps above 65 F.

As for raws I've steered clear of keeping them in the freezer because of moisture and temperature fluctuations leading me to believe the constant freeze thaw cycles would lead to faster deterioration.

 

[janoshik]

Drostanolone Enanthate dissolved in methanol, room temperature, on light, ~ 5 months: 4.91%


Here the difference was again so big that making an average as above was useless:
Drostanolone Enanthate 1 dissolved in methanol, fridge, ~ 16 months: 22.49%
Drostanolone Enanthate 2 dissolved in methanol, fridge, ~ 16 months: 3.09%

 

[micro2000]

I wonder if the addition of a lipid soluble antioxidant like vitamin E or BHT would slow this process.

 

[Type-IIx]

Hm. What does this model, exactly? I would think you might model acceleration using Eyring or Arrhenius models? Perhaps stress testing under agitation, incubation, freezing (highly relevant for rhGH). Is this just a pre-test/post-test of apparent breakdown from methanol by concentration x time? Please explain, because I do know you know your shit!!!

 

[malfeasance]

I am very confused.

First, @janoshik what does "on light" mean? Are you exposing this to light, instead of stored out of the light?

Second, methanol? I assume this is something you use to perform your testing, since nobody would inject methanol.

I guess I am just trying to figure out whether this post of yours is just a chemistry nerd posting interesting thoughts or it has some relevance to my 5 year old gear stored in a cool, dry place out of the light.

 

[xvdreQ]

He uses methanol to make his standards to compare with unknown.

I don't know for sure how he does it, but I'd assume he makes a series of standards with increasing concentrations of hormone in methanol to check linearity to calibrate his test. Or he's using them to make controls, perhaps a high and low control along with a negative control.

On Light I'd assume just meant they were exposed to light which seems to be a major issue along with temperature.

This sort of study with oil would take a long time to complete, but he did mention that he thinks oils would be even more reactive to chemical bonds than methanol.

Whatever he finds out it has changed my view of large volume brews. My raws will be cooked up in small batches and used within 12 months from here on out. I will continue to store my raws free of oxygen at 65 F in total darkness and use them when I need them.

For all those guys telling people to store your raws in oil and filter as needed, that probably needs to be discouraged.

 

[janoshik]

Hm. What does this model, exactly? I would think you might model acceleration using Eyring or Arrhenius models? Perhaps stress testing under agitation, incubation, freezing (highly relevant for rhGH). Is this just a pre-test/post-test of apparent breakdown from methanol by concentration x time? Please explain, because I do know you know your shit!!!

I've explained on the previous page, this is retesting old standards, not a deliberate study.

 

[janoshik]

I am very confused.

First, @janoshik what does "on light" mean? Are you exposing this to light, instead of stored out of the light?

Second, methanol? I assume this is something you use to perform your testing, since nobody would inject methanol.

I guess I am just trying to figure out whether this post of yours is just a chemistry nerd posting interesting thoughts or it has some relevance to my 5 year old gear stored in a cool, dry place out of the light.

On light means exposed to daylight and fluorescent light from being in transparent vials on a shelf. Methanol, indeed.

 

[janoshik]

Drostanolone Propionate dissolved in methanol, room temperature, on light, ~ 5 months: 1.01%

Drostanolone Propionate dissolved in methanol, fridge, ~ 16 months: 1.57%

 

[janoshik]

Various testosterone esters in methanol tested on verge of margin of error, both room temperature, on light, ~ 5 months and fridge, ~ 16 months.

 

[janoshik]

DHT dissolved in methanol, fridge, ~ 16 months: 8.86%

 

[laqpoqir]

As ever, test is best.

It would be nice if we could get a decent controlled long term study of common compounds in different oils, esters, solvents, etc. raws in refrigeration vs room temps, light exposure vs dark, etc.

I'd be willing to throw money toward a project like this, but it's a lot of trust and patience to place in someone for a shady business like this, unfortunately.

 

[Crystal Clear]

Shady business?

 

[grey]

Shady business?

Wut?

 

[Crystal Clear]

Wut?

Sorry i had to quote the guy above that post

 

[grey]

Sorry i had to quote the guy above that post

ah now I see it!