Dimer. What is it, and what risks does it present?

[Gigantic]

I'm looking for scientific research / literature on Dimer content within HGH.

Looking at threads like this with @Liska Dimer and related proteins in HGH

This is what gets me wondering:

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"That is a potentially dangerous amount of dimer and no responsible source would/should sell that to anyone at all."

"you will not find any factual data on dimer here or anywhere else because its simply not known what the effects of high dimer has on the body. the pharma cutoff standard seems to be 4% for dimer."

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"Most times the common side effects are swelling in areas not expected, They can also throw off blood tests. Also of course any side effects or unexpected side effects could also be the cause of a dimer."

So, can we change this? Is there research data? We should define what dimer is, and what risks it presents.

From what I understand after chatting with @janoshik a while back, it's not known what effects HGH dimer has on the body (if I even remember correctly).

But a lot of anecdotal forum bro-science evidence seems to suggest that high-dimer content HGH can cause serious swelling combined with large amounts of sodium intake.

 

[grey]

Is there research data?

I doubt anyone will ever research this for the same reason there won't be any Trenbolone studies: No commercial application for the output.


Pharma companies don't produce high-dimer % preparations so the harm from such a prep doesn't need a study.

High dimer preps will never be legitimately sold (not unlike Trenbolone for humans) ergo : no study needed.

 

[Fattyone]

I purposely bought some high dimer growth a couple months ago (~1.6%) just to see if there were any IMMEDIATE issues like worsening cts etc.. ran 3 or 4 kits at the same dose I’d been running all the others.. never noticed anything.


Who knows what the long term wffects or unseen/unfelt effects are but I didn’t notice anything in the moment.

 

[AlexDavis43]

I purposely bought some high dimer growth a couple months ago (~1.6%) just to see if there were any IMMEDIATE issues like worsening cts etc.. ran 3 or 4 kits at the same dose I’d been running all the others.. never noticed anything.


Who knows what the long term wffects or unseen/unfelt effects are but I didn’t notice anything in the moment.

1.6% dimer and no worsening CTS. That's an interesting anecdote. Did you get IGF-1 tested or do one of those serum GH testing protocols?

 

[songsofpyramids]

I recall Type-IIX has commentary on GH Dimerization somewhere towards the end of the fat loss thread.

Edit- wrong thread but found it favorite gh?

Dimer (not dimmer) refers to the % of high molecular weight proteins, basically rhGH polypeptides that have "aggregated" together (i.e., dimerization), which reduces their "cleanly" binding the GH receptor for activation.

@janoshik was kind enough to review a section of Bolus aimed at explaining clearly the Reports from reputable HPLC services, particularly his service, so there's a Practical subsection about the particularities of these Lab Reports that gives more detail. But this should suffice for passive readers.

 

[Fattyone]

1.6% dimer and no worsening CTS. That's an interesting anecdote. Did you get IGF-1 tested or do one of those serum GH testing protocols?

I did not sir.

 

[eery]

Looks like its relevant in regards to antibodies and immune responses but in most of the subjects it doesnt seem to interfere with the effects of hgh in most users though. Its probably not a good thing though.

Role of Aggregated Human Growth Hormone (hGH) in Development of Antibodies to hGH*

Abstract. By measuring [125I]hGH binding in the plasma of human GH (hGH)-deficient children at 3- to 4-month intervals during hGH therapy with hGH prepared

academic.oup.com

"We conclude that 1) the growth promoting potential of clinical grade hGH resides solely in the monomeric hGH fraction, and 2) aggregated hGH stimulates formation of antibodies to monomeric hGH during therapy with clinical grade hGH. THE ROLE OF AGGREGATED hGH IN THERAPY OF hGH DEFICIENT CHILDREN - Pediatric Research"

here is more on the immune effect i referenced:

Aggregation of protein therapeutics enhances their immunogenicity: causes and mitigation strategies - PubMed

"Protein aggregation in biotherapeutics has been identified to increase immunogenicity, leading to immune-mediated adverse effects, such as severe allergic responses including anaphylaxis. The induction of anti-drug antibodies (ADAs) moreover enhances drug clearance rates, and can directly block therapeutic function. In this review, identified immune activation mechanisms triggered by protein aggregates are discussed, as well as physicochemical properties of aggregates, such as size and shape, which contribute to immunogenicity."


i only did 5 seconds of googling though^^

 

[eery]

heres some more information on aggregates and how antibodies from protein/peptide solutions can impact things:

Immunogenicity refers to
the development of serum anti-drug antibodies (ADAs) that
specically target and bind to the proteins of interest, such as
a therapeutic proteins or drugs. This immune response can
have signicant implications for the efficacy and safety of the
protein products and can lead to reduced their effectiveness.69,70
When ADAs bind to the therapeutic protein, they can neutralize
its activity, prevent it from reaching its target or accelerate its
clearance from the body. This can result in diminished thera-
peutic effects and reduced clinical benets to the patients. In
more severe cases, the formation of ADAs can pose serious
health concerns.71,72 The immune response triggered by ADAs
can lead to adverse immune reactions, including hypersensi-
tivity reactions, allergic responses or immune-mediated
diseases. Examples include the formation of ADAs leading to
reduced efficacy or life-threatening conditions like pure red cell
aplasia (PRCA) with Eprex.73 Thorlaksen et al.74 showed that
various aggregate populations are more immunogenic
compared to the native human insulin, and the degree of
immune activation depends on specic aggregate features.