MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
doc and bbc
- Thread starter newbie23
- Start date
newbie23
New Member
this is what i can find-now that i understand how to figure it out it would be awesome to know if these are accurate.
Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Phenylpropionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days (i know u already said 7-10 days here)
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days (7-10 here also)
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days
and after this you have pretty much answered every Question i can come up with-and i appreciate both of your time-it has dispelled most of what i thought i knew about PCT
Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Phenylpropionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days (i know u already said 7-10 days here)
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days (7-10 here also)
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days
and after this you have pretty much answered every Question i can come up with-and i appreciate both of your time-it has dispelled most of what i thought i knew about PCT
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OK guys, like I said earlier this is the most thought provoking and interesting thread I think I've ever read. And i am completely re-thinking my PCT. What i need some help with here is timing the SERM application in conjunction with the PCT. These issues are making my head hurt:
If I use test E, and i start HCG 3-4 weeks after the last shot...should I take something to control cortisol and E which should be significantly elevated? Or just stop everything while I wait for the E to clear?
Shouldnt I take some kind of Anit-E with the HCG? Everything I've heard is that HCG is quite estrogenic...thoughts?
When do i start the Clomid/Nolva? Do I wait until the last shot of HCG (assuming 8 shots at 2500 iu's each every 4 days) , or should I start the SERMs at shot #4, or what? This is the part I'm having trouble with. Lets just assume I dont have access to tests...I may or may not, but I've never used them before.
I'm getting all of this together in anticipation of my next cycle...definitely going to go with Test E w/test P frontload and Tren A @ 100 mg E3D, or maybe 75mg EOD, not sure. I have everything but the PCT squared away...so as you can imagine I am anxious to figure this out. I'm willing to try Dr Scally's PCT, I just dont think I really understand it that well. All of the info is there, I just cant seem to figure out when the Clomid and Nolva START. I look at it one way and it seems to start WITH the HCG, another way it starts as soon as the HCG ends.
Mabe I;m just an idiot...any clarification is greatly appreciated guys.
If I use test E, and i start HCG 3-4 weeks after the last shot...should I take something to control cortisol and E which should be significantly elevated? Or just stop everything while I wait for the E to clear?
Shouldnt I take some kind of Anit-E with the HCG? Everything I've heard is that HCG is quite estrogenic...thoughts?
When do i start the Clomid/Nolva? Do I wait until the last shot of HCG (assuming 8 shots at 2500 iu's each every 4 days) , or should I start the SERMs at shot #4, or what? This is the part I'm having trouble with. Lets just assume I dont have access to tests...I may or may not, but I've never used them before.
I'm getting all of this together in anticipation of my next cycle...definitely going to go with Test E w/test P frontload and Tren A @ 100 mg E3D, or maybe 75mg EOD, not sure. I have everything but the PCT squared away...so as you can imagine I am anxious to figure this out. I'm willing to try Dr Scally's PCT, I just dont think I really understand it that well. All of the info is there, I just cant seem to figure out when the Clomid and Nolva START. I look at it one way and it seems to start WITH the HCG, another way it starts as soon as the HCG ends.
Mabe I;m just an idiot...any clarification is greatly appreciated guys.
newbie23
New Member
from what i have gathered this is what would be optimal
starting the day after your last shot
run HCG for 4 weeks-2000 EOD-E3D might work
then start your clomid nolva combo-basically there saying that the SERM is not as important
so clomid 50mg ED @ 4 weeks length
NOLVA 20/20/10/10
starting the day after your last shot
run HCG for 4 weeks-2000 EOD-E3D might work
then start your clomid nolva combo-basically there saying that the SERM is not as important
so clomid 50mg ED @ 4 weeks length
NOLVA 20/20/10/10
Like I said, I am not in total disagreement with the concept, just unfamiliar. I am not astute enough to understand how Adex and coritsol relate. Or am I misinterpreting "A-sin" I dont understand?? I fear the concept of coritsol as my adrenal sys is fried with Adderall.
If it works, it works.....
I do think you are over estimating the E issue. Remember E takes T to make. Degrading T levels equal lessened E levels. At a cycles end, the E2 will always be less than on cycle. The application of the SERM is at a minimum the power stroke with regard to no E present or seen by the hypo, if at all. The lack of T is the function of the down pituitary. I think that if SERMS work as suggested, their application is merely to convince no T at all to a further degree, hence stimulating bigger T response......
If it works, it works.....I do think you are over estimating the E issue. Remember E takes T to make. Degrading T levels equal lessened E levels. At a cycles end, the E2 will always be less than on cycle. The application of the SERM is at a minimum the power stroke with regard to no E present or seen by the hypo, if at all. The lack of T is the function of the down pituitary. I think that if SERMS work as suggested, their application is merely to convince no T at all to a further degree, hence stimulating bigger T response......
Looks good. Three weeks on HCG should work fine, but I'd go 2000 iu EOD (but I do so love the aphrodisiac sides
). SERMs are important, but they won't work until most of the injected ASS and HCG have leeched from your blood.Solo
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the 4 times is just the number of ( say 8 day) half lives to achieve a level of T low enought to create a demand on the hypothalmus to up production back to operational levels. 6,3, 1.5,.75.325, etc..... 325 and lower being the funtional trigger point. REGARDLESS. THE MATH IS NOMINAL EVEN WITH LOWER STARTING NUMBER. Say you start out at 3000. then 1500, 750, 325, 1.65 etc. Well maybe a week. obviously the start was double as high...... the lower you go, the less the impact. BUT that cuts both ways. Whats the amount of DECA required in the system to shut you down. Not much. So how many weeks do you have to go to get that one to "not much"... We are talking T here though....
Test prop is 3 days anyway. Not much to consider. If you achieve a level of 3000 then instead of 8 use 3. So you will achieve a four fold reduction in 12 days total, as to compared to a month.
QUOTE=newbie23;678016]K BBC im with you.......HCG is king to PCT-and a SERM helps but maybe it is not necessary.
if you have time i would like you to bring the calculation of half lives by hand down to my level.
I remember the DOC saying at a 6000ng/dl the half lives would have to be reuced 4 times in order to bring serum t levels to a range in which the HPTA is willing to activate naturally. since we are going to use a month's timeframe as a safe estimate for a 7-10 day half life. how do i figure out test prop?
why 4 times with test e? please enlighten
and as far as you running for 8 months and successfully restarting-i to am considering continuing my cycle that im currently on for about the long-even before your remark that you have done it successfully-i too have wondered if it is really that bad-and if i could restart after such a time. thoughts? i appreciate your time[/QUOTE]
Test prop is 3 days anyway. Not much to consider. If you achieve a level of 3000 then instead of 8 use 3. So you will achieve a four fold reduction in 12 days total, as to compared to a month.
QUOTE=newbie23;678016]K BBC im with you.......HCG is king to PCT-and a SERM helps but maybe it is not necessary.
if you have time i would like you to bring the calculation of half lives by hand down to my level.
I remember the DOC saying at a 6000ng/dl the half lives would have to be reuced 4 times in order to bring serum t levels to a range in which the HPTA is willing to activate naturally. since we are going to use a month's timeframe as a safe estimate for a 7-10 day half life. how do i figure out test prop?
why 4 times with test e? please enlighten
and as far as you running for 8 months and successfully restarting-i to am considering continuing my cycle that im currently on for about the long-even before your remark that you have done it successfully-i too have wondered if it is really that bad-and if i could restart after such a time. thoughts? i appreciate your time[/QUOTE]
IronCore
New Member
"I fear the concept of coritsol as my adrenal sys is fried with Adderall. If it works, it works....."
I KNEW you where on something like that... Thats why your fucking post last FOREVER!!!
(although they are informative and some times ever hilarious)
opcorn:
I KNEW you where on something like that... Thats why your fucking post last FOREVER!!!
(although they are informative and some times ever hilarious)
opcorn:BBC< thanks for the reply....but I have no idea what you just said. I need to take a litle whil to digest this, and I'll try to clarify. For now, A-sin = Aromasin...my anti E of choice prior to using Nolva.
And yeah, it takes T to make E, but there will be an abundance of Tin the weeks following last shot...then as exogenous T reduces the E has to go somewhere....and with the extra E production with the HCG I just am worried about estrogenic sides.
And yeah, it takes T to make E, but there will be an abundance of Tin the weeks following last shot...then as exogenous T reduces the E has to go somewhere....and with the extra E production with the HCG I just am worried about estrogenic sides.
First please remember that Doc is the man here. I am just the advocate of the devils apprentice to the unthinkable..[}
] While doc may be a 4th cousing of incestual unknown nature, it is I who got only one testicle and 3 nipples....[)] All joking aside and no relation. He lets me play bad guy more than I need to be allowed......
The concept is simple. Lets not overcomplicate it. KISS......etc.
For T only or 8-10 day MAX half-life cycles of 16 weeks per say, obviously the HCG and SERM therapies are going to be at maximum effectiveness around the end of the fourth week. Hell I am not even sure what dosage and time frame he was using. Most do not wait this long. The whole concept originated as a reduction of down time for the insanely serious. POST A TCYP ONLY CYCLE, is it going to hurt you to run your HCG for only 2 weeks post cycle and then immediately run a 4 week serm protocol. Probably not and will probably work. Just not optimal. DOC IS SERIOUS ABOUT SUCCESSFUL PCT,,, Thats what he does.....
Would that protocol work in the real world if Nandrolone were included up to week 16 cycle, my guess is no. You would have to run a quick repeat so to speak.....
Personally speaking I dont think we can underestimate the conglomerated amount of time spent on as related to off. People tend to get carried away. If one's protocol truely equalled these patterns as equal, the game would remain the same every time. But they dont.
While I may believe that a freshman can go 8 months and recover naturally within 8 weeks with the use of HCG only, THAT IS ALL THROWN RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW AFTER THE FIRST CYCLE. Do you really think I waited another 8 months???
I CANT SAY THIS ENOUGH. Restart is one thing. How long you have trained you brain to shut down T production is another. THE SECOND WILL SUPERCEDE EVERY TIME. A patient could come to doc and explain a routine of cycling that was too close together. But until the doc knows the extent of the TOTAL TIME FRAME OF ONs and OFFs, he will not truely know what he is dealing with. THEN AGAIN, perhaps SERMS have the ability to brainwash the body of history as well. I dont know. Nor do I have the experience to say either way... But, people love to lie and deny......
I am not intending to contradict doc in any way. These are all my thoughts. He knows he can step in a slap me any time.
] While doc may be a 4th cousing of incestual unknown nature, it is I who got only one testicle and 3 nipples....[)] All joking aside and no relation. He lets me play bad guy more than I need to be allowed......The concept is simple. Lets not overcomplicate it. KISS......etc.
For T only or 8-10 day MAX half-life cycles of 16 weeks per say, obviously the HCG and SERM therapies are going to be at maximum effectiveness around the end of the fourth week. Hell I am not even sure what dosage and time frame he was using. Most do not wait this long. The whole concept originated as a reduction of down time for the insanely serious. POST A TCYP ONLY CYCLE, is it going to hurt you to run your HCG for only 2 weeks post cycle and then immediately run a 4 week serm protocol. Probably not and will probably work. Just not optimal. DOC IS SERIOUS ABOUT SUCCESSFUL PCT,,, Thats what he does.....
Would that protocol work in the real world if Nandrolone were included up to week 16 cycle, my guess is no. You would have to run a quick repeat so to speak.....
Personally speaking I dont think we can underestimate the conglomerated amount of time spent on as related to off. People tend to get carried away. If one's protocol truely equalled these patterns as equal, the game would remain the same every time. But they dont.
While I may believe that a freshman can go 8 months and recover naturally within 8 weeks with the use of HCG only, THAT IS ALL THROWN RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW AFTER THE FIRST CYCLE. Do you really think I waited another 8 months???
I CANT SAY THIS ENOUGH. Restart is one thing. How long you have trained you brain to shut down T production is another. THE SECOND WILL SUPERCEDE EVERY TIME. A patient could come to doc and explain a routine of cycling that was too close together. But until the doc knows the extent of the TOTAL TIME FRAME OF ONs and OFFs, he will not truely know what he is dealing with. THEN AGAIN, perhaps SERMS have the ability to brainwash the body of history as well. I dont know. Nor do I have the experience to say either way... But, people love to lie and deny......
I am not intending to contradict doc in any way. These are all my thoughts. He knows he can step in a slap me any time.
I dont know Doc. I got myself thinking. Do you think that the application of Clomid or Nolva has the ability not only to jumpstart the HPTA, but also RESET the historical trend and pattern? Do you think in your experience that the use of a SERM for PCT, especially with regard to long term users having problems, can totally negate a history of learned precedence set.??
IronCore
New Member
According to his documentation he has been successful with it...
Unless I am still retarded and cant get my reading comprehension in check...
Doc?
Unless I am still retarded and cant get my reading comprehension in check...
Doc?
newbie23
New Member
well i have done 1 test only cycle-14 weeks-i did wait a full 5 months before the next one-which is the one im currently on and have been on since 11/15/09
but your right-even if i did run it through summer who and the hell would want to wait 8 months to get back on.
All I will say is YOU ARE PLAYING WITH FIRE....!!! This is a suicide inhibitor. It reduces E2 conversion by some 98%.!!!!!!!!! You got none left....... Thats not gonna look good on your profile, so to speak.... This is an AI. Like Adex or Letro. just to NUKE version so to speak.... The other two only reduce by 70%. The bad thing about a suicide inhibitor is that in theory it permanently renders the enzymes that make the free T conversion to E inoperable. So you can not make more E2 until your body produces more of these enzymes. I dont know the time frame. I think the whole suicide inhbiitor concep deserves a thread to its own for sure. Again it is not an HPTA stimulator. Only clomid and/or Nolva do that for our purposes. You might want to research that one a bit prior to further use....opcorn:
HCG only produces E to the Tune that it produces T....... Negligeable.
opcorn:HCG only produces E to the Tune that it produces T....... Negligeable.
OK, thanks for the reply. I need to do some more research if i want to defend my use of aromasin, for now I'll just bow to the advice I've been given and leave it out of my next PCT. I really want to come off of this next cycle better than my last ....which ended almost 7 months ago.
Which SUCKS because I am really itching to pin this Test P and Tren A.....DAMNIT! I refuse to stat this until I get ALL of my PCT together, and to do it this way I'm going to need a shitload more HCG.
Thanks for all of the replies....
Which SUCKS because I am really itching to pin this Test P and Tren A.....DAMNIT! I refuse to stat this until I get ALL of my PCT together, and to do it this way I'm going to need a shitload more HCG.
Thanks for all of the replies....
Dont bow, challenge me back.. I am no profitt. I may even be wrong all together... Just risky I think based on "what I heard....". I dont really understand the concept of aromasin all that well.. Good luck either way.... [
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I think whats confusing me is the timing ie when to start HCG and Nolva with the longer esthers. I might just make that a non issue by running a back load with test P for 4 weeks after my last Test E shot....I think that'll cut down on my confusion....and I love Prop...and it'll make for a nice 18-20 week cycle
Fascinating discussion. I'll be doing some research based on this thread ASAP.
Fascinating discussion. I'll be doing some research based on this thread ASAP.
IronCore
New Member
Running a back load of Test P while waiting out the long esters is an excellent idea... Thanks JM!
asshat, You must be off your med's today... your posts are much shorter... Isn't that what your wife said?
asshat, You must be off your med's today... your posts are much shorter... Isn't that what your wife said?
Yes I am guessing the question has already been answered and proven.
So then would it be safe to say, that not only does PCT stimulate the HPTA into working normally, it erases the brain's learned method of behavior as it relates to time? I would also have to venture to guess that if he has indeed been successful restoring guys with years of abusive histories, then the answer is yes.
If all that said truely holds water, then perhaps I have underestimated the power of PCT protocols and just how effective they can be. But doesn't this evidence also lend plenty of credence to the idea of doing really superlong cycle and getting away with it?????
So then would it be safe to say, that not only does PCT stimulate the HPTA into working normally, it erases the brain's learned method of behavior as it relates to time? I would also have to venture to guess that if he has indeed been successful restoring guys with years of abusive histories, then the answer is yes.
If all that said truely holds water, then perhaps I have underestimated the power of PCT protocols and just how effective they can be. But doesn't this evidence also lend plenty of credence to the idea of doing really superlong cycle and getting away with it?????
Stretch
Subscriber
This is probably the best thread on this whole forum. When it comes to practical application for what we do, it doesn't get better than this.
Why don't we have stickies here???
I have a question regarding timing the application of a SERM
If one was injecting sustanon 250....with the mixed esters how would you calculate blood levels in order to start SERM's at the correct time??
Would you wait the 28-40 days because of the decanoate??
Or would blood levels drop more rapidly because of the shorter esters??
Why don't we have stickies here???
I have a question regarding timing the application of a SERM
If one was injecting sustanon 250....with the mixed esters how would you calculate blood levels in order to start SERM's at the correct time??
Would you wait the 28-40 days because of the decanoate??
Or would blood levels drop more rapidly because of the shorter esters??
