Does Exogenous Testosterone (HRT) Always Totally Suppress Your Own T Production

[bullmastiff]

It seems that there's much controvery on this point. I've heard opinions that
as little as 5 grams of androgel a day will eventually shut down your own T
production as surely as large doses would.

This does not make sense to me. I have a hypothyroid condition. One of the
symptoms was a high TSH count. With thyroid augmentation my TSH has
fallen into the normal range which indictates my body is still producing some
thyroid on it's own.

You would think that principal would work with testosterone also. Low dose
HRT that brings your production into a more normal range should lower your
LH but shouldn't totally suppress it. The literature that comes with androgel
also seems to indicate this. They have studies that show steady testoterone
levels for both 5 and 10 grams for up to 3 months.

Any thoughts on this issue?

 

[sol t balls]

I think it is safe to assume that regardless of the amount, if it is at an effective level (meaning the TRT is working) you will be supressed.

 

[bullmastiff]

I know it will be suppressed. My question is wether there is total suppression
at any dose.

 

[sol t balls]

I know it will be suppressed. My question is wether there is total suppression
at any dose.

I dont believe there are varying degrees of "supression". Your either shut down or your not.

 

[gimp]

i think actually there ARE varying degrees. HTPA suppression is not like an on-off switch for a lightbulb... its more like a dimmer-switch for a lightbulb.

think about it... if you run deca+tren+test you are more supprssed than if you run test only.

 

[buck]

I believe that Swale says that suppression is on a curve. For my self on 5 grams of Androgel a day my LH level was basically zero, so I would assume that I was producing little to no T.

 

[sol t balls]

i think actually there ARE varying degrees. HTPA suppression is not like an on-off switch for a lightbulb... its more like a dimmer-switch for a lightbulb.

think about it... if you run deca+tren+test you are more supprssed than if you run test only.

Not so.

People may notice more pronounced effects with a combination of AAS as it acts faster in interfering with the HTPA. In the example you provided, Progesterone would be a major culprit as well. But ultimately, sex drives almost always dissapears after a prolonged time on a cycle OR TRT (no added androgens)...why is that? Because LH is non-existant.

I have never known of any tests which indicate a "lowering" of LH. Once people start trt, their LH reading usually drops to 0. This is an indication of total supression, and the reason that HCG is used. (Not to stimulate LH production, but to mimic it)

 

[freedomfighter]

I agree with whats been said about HCG, but the progesterone statement is wrong. The culprit with Tren use is a combination of its progesteronic effects and prolactin which it causes to be secreted..

Freedomfighter

 

[sol t balls]

I agree with whats been said about HCG, but the progesterone statement is wrong. The culprit with Tren use is a combination of its progesteronic effects and prolactin which it causes to be secreted..

Freedomfighter

Right.

 

[bullmastiff]

I came across a study regarding proviron. This study seems to indicate the
male body can tolerate some degree of external androgen use before totally
shutting down it's own production. Granted this is proviron which is basically
dht.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K.

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment. One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone. One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and 75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml). Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group. Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated. There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function. One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy. Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Jun;6(6):331-7. Related Articles, Links

 

[bg65]

I would think that your body would do whatever was necessary to maintain homeostasis...If your endogenous test production was 7mg/day and you take in 4 mg/day of exogenous test, then your body's production would probably be somewhere around 3mg/day to try to maintain homeostasis...with LH levels being wherever necessary to tell the testes to produce this amnt...you might already know this, but...TSH is produced by the anterior pituitary and is part of the pathway that causes the thyroid to produce it's hormones T3 and T4...you had a high TSH level because your anterior pituitary works and for some reason your thyroid does not, so your ant. pit. kept making more TSH to try and tell the thyroid to step up production of T3 and T4, which serve as a negative feedback signal to the ant. pit. to decrease production of TSH, without this negative feedback the TSH level continues to rise but once you started taking exogenous T3 the negative feedback mechanism was restored and your TSH levels dropped to normal...
does the androgel lit. state that LH levels taper off or stop completely? I would think it would taper off due to the restored negative feedback, until the exogenous level exceeded that for homeostasis

 

[Arnold73]

This is a very good question, be interesting to hear Swales thoughts on it.

 

[bullmastiff]

That was an interesting analogy on homeostasis. But that would not help
someone on HRT who has low T. Suppose I make 5 milligrams of T a day
and take 5 grams of androgel which supplies about 5 milligrams of T it would
essentially be a wash. I would end up with the same amount of T I started
with.

The androgel packets come with studies at 5 and 10 grams that seem to indicate the body holds steady for about three months before starting to dip in
T. The studies measure T from the beginning. This seems to indicate to me
that for some men low in T the added androgen is being accepted by the
body as within normal ranges for several months.

 

[Joe West]

any significant amount when in relation to total test production, will shut you down evenutually. now, for others it may take longer certainly, but its a forgone conclusion on a long enough timeline.

you might be able to get away being on a certain amount of dhea, but even that and andro effects test levels 24 hours after administration.

 

[SWALE]

HPTA suppression secondary to androgen supplementation is indeed by degrees. It is a balancing act with TRT.

 

[gimp]

HPTA suppression secondary to androgen supplementation is indeed by degrees. It is a balancing act with TRT.

this helps to explain why some hormones shut us down harder than others, i guess.