Fear the Estrogen, fear the DHT, or both?

[edjohn88]

Last week I experienced a major acne breakout and some moodiness and I realized my cruise dosing was just too much. My program was fairly good for a few weeks but last week I added the Proviron, DHEA, and Pregnenolone. Obviously it's too much at once, but I wonder if DHT levels play a part in this or only E2... I get full bloods tomorrow at the VA so I'll update but I don't know if DHT is part of their standard panel.

3 weeks or so without issue (limited because I was traveling):
150mg Test C
150mg Mast P
BPC/TB
Fish Oil
D3
Boron
Lactobacilus Reuteri
5-10mg Cialis

Last week added:
500iu hCG (EOD)
25-50mg Proviron (ED)
50mg DHEA (EOD)
10mg Pregnenolone (ED)

My fix was to cut the hCG in half, drop the Prov/DHEA/Preg and pop an AI for a couple days and it's definitely clearing up but I would like to use Prov in the future... just maybe it's one or the other with Mast?

I read that high DHT can cause, but it can also just mean a fluctuation in E2 (up or down). Am I being to quick to blame combining Masteron, Proviron, and DHEA, or is it a common problem that DHT gets too high? Is there a rule of thumb in estimating how much is too much?

 

[narta]

Fear nothing, modulate everything

 

[NineteenNor]

Very likely just the result of general hormone fluctuation.

Starting a full hCG dose + DHEA on top of your liberal TRT regimen certainly ramped up your T, DHT, and E.

Any past experiences of breakouts upon starting a cycle?

 

[edjohn88]

Yes I’ve definitely seen this response when adjusting.

I guess the one question i have for cruise/TRT+ guys is do you have a rule of thumb to start with i.e. matching your DHT support to your T dose etc?

From past TRT experience 150mg cyp with low dose hCG puts me at a perfect TT level, though in those days I was on 1/4 Adex twice a week so I‘m a little in the dark as to getting E2 right with anabolics and no AI.

 

[Millard]

Fear nothing, modulate everything

DHT is good for men

Estrogen is good for men

 

[Inspired]

Last week I experienced a major acne breakout and some moodiness and I realized my cruise dosing was just too much. My program was fairly good for a few weeks but last week I added the Proviron, DHEA, and Pregnenolone. Obviously it's too much at once, but I wonder if DHT levels play a part in this or only E2... I get full bloods tomorrow at the VA so I'll update but I don't know if DHT is part of their standard panel.

3 weeks or so without issue (limited because I was traveling):
150mg Test C
150mg Mast P
BPC/TB
Fish Oil
D3
Boron
Lactobacilus Reuteri
5-10mg Cialis

Last week added:
500iu hCG (EOD)
25-50mg Proviron (ED)
50mg DHEA (EOD)
10mg Pregnenolone (ED)

My fix was to cut the hCG in half, drop the Prov/DHEA/Preg and pop an AI for a couple days and it's definitely clearing up but I would like to use Prov in the future... just maybe it's one or the other with Mast?

I read that high DHT can cause, but it can also just mean a fluctuation in E2 (up or down). Am I being to quick to blame combining Masteron, Proviron, and DHEA, or is it a common problem that DHT gets too high? Is there a rule of thumb in estimating how much is too much?

The DHEA dose is too high and it will rapidly send your estrogen skyrocketing. 50mg of DHEA is powerful and I never understood why it came in such a large dose. If you want to use DHEA, use 5mg sublingually. Buy a 25mg and cut into four pieces. Start there. Because you don't need much DHEA for anti-aging/maintenance purposes. 5mg will bring you to baseline levels. Over 5mg etc, DHEA can be a cancer promoter.

 

[edjohn88]

Solid answer! I know a girl who needs E2 support and takes 100mg... we are not the same

I found some 5mg caps from Pure Encapsulations...

 

[Inspired]

Solid answer! I know a girl who needs E2 support and takes 100mg... we are not the same

I found some 5mg caps from Pure Encapsulations...

100mg sounds like a lot. DHEA is a miracle anti-aging and anti disease substance but it all depends on the dose. Stick below like 25mg per day. Preferably 12-15mg. And 5mg is good for everyone. The higher the dose, the more DHEA is converted to estrogen.

 

[edjohn88]

On that note, does it even make sense to take it if you are already on a DHT derivative like mast/primo/prov? Basic instinct says you’re wasting money at that point but I dont know the deep dark science.

 

[Inspired]

On that note, does it even make sense to take it if you are already on a DHT derivative like mast/primo/prov? Basic instinct says you’re wasting money at that point but I dont know the deep dark science.

If you take HCG and your diet is "good", then it's probably not necessary to take pregnenolone or DHEA etc. For anti aging purposes or as an insurance policy, you can take a small dose of DHEA, but I would wait until around age 40 to begin supplementing with DHEA because endogenous production is going to be functioning properly and the slow decline begins at around age 40, maybe earlier.

 

[GuerillaPete]

Why take hcg and dhea+pregnenolone?
I would take just the hcg.

 

[edjohn88]

I only take hCG because i like my balls and the possibility that it allows me to be fertile.

DHEA and Pregnenolone are purported to free up Testosterone and promote libido. Even if hCG increases TT I don’t think it can do what DHEA and Preg do.

Note: I am 40 and have lifted natty 15 years. The 5 prior to that I was in special operations (not much gym but I trained hard). Not sure if it matters, but my natural levels if everything are past their prime.

Would you not even supplement if bloods showed lower levels? Are you 100% confident that slightly higher levels could’t free up T and promote libido?

 

[GuerillaPete]

I only take hCG because i like my balls and the possibility that it allows me to be fertile.

DHEA and Pregnenolone are purported to free up Testosterone and promote libido. Even if hCG increases TT I don’t think it can do what DHEA and Preg do.

Note: I am 40 and have lifted natty 15 years. The 5 prior to that I was in special operations (not much gym but I trained hard). Not sure if it matters, but my natural levels if everything are past their prime.

Would you not even supplement if bloods showed lower levels? Are you 100% confident that slightly higher levels could’t free up T and promote libido?

Hcg makes your body produce Dhea and Pregnenolone.

 

[Exhortae]

Hcg skyrocket my e2.

Everytime i pin hcg i get a nasty zit on my face. Big, red and inflamed

 

[GuerillaPete]

Hcg skyrocket my e2.

Everytime i pin hcg i get a nasty zit on my face. Big, red and inflamed

You could make serious money with this betting people you can make a big zip appear the next day.
On the serious note i can't relate the more hcg i take the better i feel .
It might raise my estrogen but not by much .

 

[Inspired]

I only take hCG because i like my balls and the possibility that it allows me to be fertile.

DHEA and Pregnenolone are purported to free up Testosterone and promote libido. Even if hCG increases TT I don’t think it can do what DHEA and Preg do.

Note: I am 40 and have lifted natty 15 years. The 5 prior to that I was in special operations (not much gym but I trained hard). Not sure if it matters, but my natural levels if everything are past their prime.

Would you not even supplement if bloods showed lower levels? Are you 100% confident that slightly higher levels could’t free up T and promote libido?

The reason you would take DHEA and pregnelonone is NOT to "free up testosterone and promote libido". That's not how these work. It's too complicated to explain here and now. These substances serve many functions in the body. They aren't only precursors to hormones like testosterone.

You are on testosterone and HCG. Both of those will increase estrogen. DHEA is estrogenic. It's too much estrogen. HCG will force your body to make the hormones you need.

If you want to experiment with DHEA, do it, but you won't be able to tell what it's doing for you. You have to take it based on faith in what you read in the literature. Read about DHEA for anti aging etc. As I said, I'd take 5mg daily, which compliments your own endogenous production and keeps the levels at your "young" level. Makes sense?

 

[Inspired]

You could make serious money with this betting people you can make a big zip appear the next day.
On the serious note i can't relate the more hcg i take the better i feel .
It might raise my estrogen but not by much .

It raises estrogen but that's why I use things like primo and then there's no problem. I agree that HCG is great. My only concern is potentially having my Leydig cells becoming desensitized from using too much HCG.

 

[Bigtinylittle]

Yes I’ve definitely seen this response when adjusting.

I guess the one question i have for cruise/TRT+ guys is do you have a rule of thumb to start with i.e. matching your DHT support to your T dose etc?

From past TRT experience 150mg cyp with low dose hCG puts me at a perfect TT level, though in those days I was on 1/4 Adex twice a week so I‘m a little in the dark as to getting E2 right with anabolics and no AI.

Personally I would ditch the proviron because you are running mast at a 1:1 ratio with test. Also mast prop has a shorter half life so I would split that and the test into a twice a week or m,w,f schedule. That schedule will also minimize the rollercoaster effect giving you more stable blood levels which will minimize side effects, particularly acne. I would also ditch all the ancillaries and only use them if side effects occur which they shouldn’t at that low of dose. The HCG is helpful but I would cycle it if you are only using it for ball size. If you want to get more out of your trt I would up the test, even double it, and ditch everything else except for the mast which I would cycle in for two weeks every eight weeks, I.e. weeks 7&8, at half the test dose or up to 1:1. Obviously I am not referring to the peptides you are using for healing when I say ditch everything else as I feel they are a separate issue entirely.

 

[edjohn88]

I'm actually going to reset completely for a few weeks, just 140mg Test P (split ED) and 250iu hCG 3x. I would like to add in Proviron or low dose Primo instead and save the Mast for blasting later, but first I want to see where the T and hCG alone get my numbers without AI as I've never run it like that before.

I loaded Goodlyfe's Test P into a Lilly pen and with 1/2" 30g into the delt there's zero PIP with an ED dose. This will let me test sooner and make adjustments.

 

[GuerillaPete]

It raises estrogen but that's why I use things like primo and then there's no problem. I agree that HCG is great. My only concern is potentially having my Leydig cells becoming desensitized from using too much HCG.

Where does this fear of desensitizing come from?
i have never seen that happen.