First Cycle- HCG Question

[Kaladin]

The source I went through has been in this scene for 10+ years. I know quite a few people who have went through him and they all had great experiences and have said the quality is there. So I believe it is quality product. Also, as I am worried about bloating too badly (I hate that look) I figured if there were problems with the ai I could always order liquidex from rui as a last resort as I have seen hundreds of people have given great testimony for it.

 

[BigRed91]

I actually had some letting from Rui never used it but my friend got gyno and I gave it to him and he said it cleared it up but it's still a research company so quality could be hit or miss

 

[Kaladin]

That is what worries me. I'm just going to trust in my source and pay close attention to all of the details and if adjustments need to be made in the products then I'll get more from elsewhere. I'm pretty confident everything is quality, though.

 

[BigRed91]

Kool man just didn't want u to do the same shit I did

 

[Kaladin]

I appreciate it dude, very much. I'll definitely keep everything you've said throughout this post in mind. I'm going to start sourcing for other ai and pct gear tomorrow just in case.

 

[Dr JIM]

Hello everyone. I'm new to this site and AAS but fairly experienced in weight training and diet. Just some quick stats:

Age: 26
Height: 5'11"
Weight: 186 lb
Body Fat: 11.5% on average

I have been weight training for 5 years but only properly dieting for the last 10 months, in which time I have dropped 20 lbs (mostly bf).

My weekly split is:
Monday: Back
Tuesday: Chest
Wednesday: Cardio
Thursday: Legs
Friday: Arms
Saturday: Shoulders
Sunday: Abs

I incorporate 10 minutes of light cardio (15° incline @ 3.2 mph) every weight training day as well.

I have decided to take my training to the next level and get into the AAS side of things as I have plateaued as of late and would love to boost my physique. Being my first cycle, I have decided to go mild to gauge the effects on my body.

I will be running a 10 week cycle of Test E @ 500mg/week administered in 2 increments a week. I have adex on hand and will be running that at .25 EOD and will increase or decrease as necessary. My PCT will consist of a 4 week tapered combo of clomid/nolvadex. All of this seems like the standard beginners cycle from my research and what I have seen on most forums.

My question is that some forums say I should be running HCG during my cycle and into PCT and others say at this dosage it isn't necessary. I would prefer to not be sticking myself more than necessary as I travel frequently for work and don't want to bring a ton of gear with me. Is HCG necessary for this cycle? If so, have any of you used HCGenerate as a replacement? As capsules this would be easier for myself and the reviews seem to be very positive.

If this is a stupid question, I apologize. But I can't find much info on it and really want to nail this cycle and have a great recovery.

If anyone has an answer or any questions for me please reply. Thank you!

For someone who has worked as hard as you obviously have, the risks (and there are MANY) of AAS exceed the benefit
UNLESS you are interested in competitive BB IMO.

Oh and the presence of exogenous androgens limits the benefits of HCG while cycling.

For that reason, depending upon the degree of gonadal atrophy, I have found the use of HCG is best reserved for the immediate postcycle recovery interval.

For more info go to the Meso home page and read Bill Roberts opinions on AAS and Ancillaries

 

[Kaladin]

For someone who has worked as hard as you obviously have, the risks (and there are MANY) of AAS exceed the benefit
UNLESS you are interested in competitive BB IMO.

Oh and the presence of exogenous androgens limits the benefits of HCG while cycling.

For that reason, depending upon the degree of gonadal atrophy, I have found the use of HCG is best reserved for the immediate postcycle recovery interval.

For more info go to the Meso home page and read Bill Roberts opinions on AAS and Ancillaries

Thanks for the advice and the thread to follow. I eventually want to get into shows (physique) but would like to develop my body a little more before I start doing that. But, the risks definitely frighten me, which is why I am trying to take every precaution to do this correctly.

 

[Horimono]

Oh and the presence of exogenous androgens limits the benefits of HCG while cycling.

Dr Jim,
Can you elaborate on this statement? How are the benefits specifically limited by the presence of androgens?

So many guys run HCG while on cycle to minimize testicular atrophy. So many TRT doctors RX it as well for the same purpose. John Crisler advises it too. Seems the norm.

5 weeks into my 500 mg/week Test E cycle I got significant testicular atrophy. My now current TRT doctor rx'd HCG at 250iu twice weekly back when my nuts first shrank. After maybe 4 weeks and no change he advised I bump it to 500iu for 2 weeks. I did this with still no change. I went back down to 250 as I didn't think the additional 250 made any difference. I spoke to him about it the other day and said I didn't feel like 250 was doing anything in helping bring the boys back from their shriveled state. He said "just keep using it, it will probably take a little time". I've read HCG helps a lot of guys maintain testical size and I've also read it makes no difference with others. I seem to be in the latter. What are your thoughts/experiences?

 

[Dr JIM]

Dr Jim,
Can you elaborate on this statement? How are the benefits specifically limited by the presence of androgens?

So many guys run HCG while on cycle to minimize testicular atrophy ------- esp if the result of secondary hypogonadism

So many TRT doctors RX it as well for the same purpose. John Crisler advises it too. Seems the norm. ------- and one can add infertility to that list of

And what do ALL those conditions have I common?

A LOW TT level, which is NOT present when AAS are being cycled.

The effects of HCG are blunted considerably in the presence of exogenous AAS or ANDROGENS, much of this evidence lies in existing TRT data and the remainder is derived from those mates who I follow.

The testing is SO simple and involves the following
- a baseline TT level

-- run any AAS except TT and start HCG -------- then draw a TT level. The rise in serum TT is far below what many have been led to believe, like perhaps 200-300ng/dl IF you're lucky and does NOT necessarily correlate with improvements in testicular size as the latter is primarily the result of enhanced spermatogenesis.

 

[Dr JIM]

I should add, although one could run TT in a cycle and still evaluate the effects of supplemental HCG, but the testing is more complicated and requires quantification of BOTH testosterone and epitestosterone.


Many of the comments or anecdotes on this topic involve changes in testicular SIZE which is far to unreliable a as measure of TT quantification.

Dr Greaser ---------- I honestly don't know where he concocts some of his thoughts and/or ideas bc it's clear a considerable portion are NOT evidence based.

 

[Horimono]

And what do ALL those conditions have I common?

A LOW TT level, which is NOT present when AAS are being cycled.

The effects of HCG are blunted considerably in the presence of exogenous AAS or ANDROGENS, much of this evidence lies in existing TRT data and the remainder is derived from those mates who I follow.

The testing is SO simple and involves the following
- a baseline TT level

-- run any AAS except TT and start HCG -------- then draw a TT level. The rise in serum TT far below what many have been led to believe, like perhaps 200-300ng/dl IF you're lucky IME

Thank you sir. I appreciate you responding and providing your expertise.

Why do you think so many physicains (Dr Crisler included) think it is beneficial while on TRT? I know you can only speculate. Are they misinformed by the data or their own experience? Maybe they are only looking to maintain fertility and I am assuming it's for testicular size.

If I would have began HCG BEFORE I got atrophy, do you think it may have prevented it? Or is it pretty guaranteed once endogenous Test ceasts?

Do you see any benefit to continuing it (not including fertility)?

Is there anything that can restore my testicular size back to normal other than stopping TRT and beginning PCT with HCG?

When does testicular shrinkage stop? My nuts are pretty damn small.

 

[Dr JIM]

1) Why do you think so many physicains (Dr Crisler included) think it is beneficial while on TRT? I

2) If I would have began HCG BEFORE I got atrophy, do you think it may have prevented it?

3) When does testicular shrinkage stop? .

1) Where did I state HCG was NOT beneficial as one form of LEGITIMATE TRT ???
(And the use of HCG during a cycle is NOT TRT in any way, fashion, or form!)

2) You cycle AAS your gonads WILL SHRINK period but the degree of atrophy correlates with the potency and duration of AAS use

3) When you cease running AAS

4) Try the Meso home page for more info

Good luck

 

[Dr JIM]

I appreciate it dude, very much. I'll definitely keep everything you've said throughout this post in mind. I'm going to start sourcing for other ai and pct gear tomorrow just in case.

Unless said products are Pharma that were "made in the USA", North America (caveat below) or perhaps the European Union, problems are much more likely to arise.

Consequently bc of issues pertaining to the delivery of a quality product on a consistent basis I would absolutely avoid those PCT drugs manufactured, sold or "sourced" thru the "IndoChina" region, which to be more specific includes; India, China and all of Asia.

Finally the above also applies to products sourced thru Canada, yet were manufactured in India, as the FDA issued an alert sometime ago about the QUALITY of those medications in particular!

As an aside know what I'm suggesting is NOT such a difficult task if one is committed to running quality ancillaries, bc NONE are listed as controlled substances! The net effect being you get what you pay for.

 

[GeorgeForemanRules]

Another lazy child who is on drugs now and looks like nothing, wanting his daddy and mommy to say it is ok to abuse drugs. Pathetic.