Wow interesting. Okay give me a few mins, ill see what hes got as references.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Food and Hormones?
- Thread starter calfmuscle555
- Start date
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Selected references
Bushey, B, et al. Fenugreek extract supplementation has no effect on the hormonal profile of resistance trained males.Int J Exercise Science Conference proceedings 2009
Tambi,MI, et al. Standardized water-soluble extract of Eurycoma longfolia (Tongkat ali) as a testosterone-booster for managing men with late-onset hypogonadism? Andrologia 44 Supple 1 2012;226-30
Muthu, K, et al. Evaluation of androgenic activity of Macuna priuiens in male rats. African J Biotechnol 2013;10:15017-15019.
Gunnels, TA, et al. Increasing circulating testosterone: Impact of herbal dietary supplements. Plant Biochem Physiol 2014;2;2
Talbot, S, et al. Effect of Tongkat Ali on stress hormones and psychological mood state in moderately stressed subjects.J Int Soc Sports Nut 2013;10:28.
Afolayan, AJ, et al. Effect of Bulbine Natalenis Baker stem extract on the functional indices and histology of the liver and kidney of male Wistar rats.J Med Food 2009;12:814-20
Ebrahim, M, et al. The effect of Tulbaghia Violacea extracts on testosterone secretion by testicular cell cultures. JEthnophamracol 2010;132:359-61.
Nantia, AN, et al. Effects of the methanol extract of Basella Alba on steroid production in Leydig cells. Int J Mol Sci 2011;12:376-84.
Chaiyasit, K, et al. Hyperandrogenemia due to ingestion of Butea Superba.Ind J Endocrin Metab 2012;16:485-486.
Chauhan,NS, et al. Effects of Bryonia Laciniosa seeds on sexual behavior of male rats. Int J Impotence Res 2010;22:190-95.
Yakubu, MT, et al.Pro-sexual effects of aqueous extracts of Massularia Acuminata root in male Wistar rats.Andrologia 2011;43:334-40.
Derouiche, A, et al. Effect of argan and olive oil consumption on the hormonal profile of androgens among healthy adult Moroccan men.Nat Prod Commun 2013;8:51-53.MrRippedZilla
Member
The only reference there that may be remotely relevant to this conversation is the last one - "Effect of argan and olive oil consumption on the hormonal profile of androgens among healthy adult Moroccan men" (free download here). Everything else has to do with herbal supplements, animal/in vitro data and other irrelevant stuff.
As for the paper I did mention as being relevant, it suggests that the consumption of argan & olive oil increases test levels by a whopping 19.9 & 17.4%. This translates to an 3.2-3.5nmol/l increase in test levels, which is around a 100ng/dl increase - not so impressive now is it? As Doc stated earlier, this isn't a noticeable difference.
I'll add that the paper sucks anyway. It's in a shitty journal (I've never even heard of "natural product communications"), with no in depth discussion of the results, methodology, limitations or anything else...big red flags for me.
Anyway, nothing in that selected reference list to support the claim that we should all avoid processed carbs if we care about our test levels I'm afraid.
As for the paper I did mention as being relevant, it suggests that the consumption of argan & olive oil increases test levels by a whopping 19.9 & 17.4%. This translates to an 3.2-3.5nmol/l increase in test levels, which is around a 100ng/dl increase - not so impressive now is it? As Doc stated earlier, this isn't a noticeable difference.
I'll add that the paper sucks anyway. It's in a shitty journal (I've never even heard of "natural product communications"), with no in depth discussion of the results, methodology, limitations or anything else...big red flags for me.
Anyway, nothing in that selected reference list to support the claim that we should all avoid processed carbs if we care about our test levels I'm afraid.
Hmmm interesting. Thanks for the analytical commentary. I might skim through his other work and see if I can find the source of that particular claim. If I cant trust Jerry Brainum, then I aint even going to be getting out of bed in the morning anymore.
Evolutionman
New Member
I disagree. Your diet, does in fact, have a lot to do with hormone levels-Good cholesterol, fats, lean protiens, greens, cruciferous veggies.
Keep microwaving your tv dinners while you're sucking down Budweiser, red bull vodkas, & tater chips on the couch and see how quick you get bitch tits.
calfmuscle555
New Member
I do agree, nutrition is the key[emoji123]
I never said nutrition doesn't affect hormonal levels. What I was implying was that once minimum nutritional needs are met then extra intake won't make any significant or noticeable effects.
Are you seriously suggesting to avoid potato chips and Budweiser bc they cause gyno yet you're on a steroid board presumable advocating the use of anabolic agents known to cause gyno much more prevalently than any diet induced effect??? I suggest you begin reading about the etiology of gyno.
PS. I'm a tequila and corona guy plus I prefer French fries to potato chips. When can I expect gyno to start?
calfmuscle555
New Member
If that's the kind of diet that you enjoy AND you meet your macro and micro minimum requirements then you're well on your way to meeting your goals.
Evolutionman
New Member
By quoting my response with others to the thread and saying there all basically bullshit-you did.
Yes, on a steroid board commenting in (nutrition/supplements) I'm suggesting that diet, to include but not limited to: Budweiser and tater chips have an affect on hormone levels to the affect of lowering T or raising estrogen levels.
Plenty of studies have reported an alcohol-induced rise in estrogen levels.
Attributing to side-effects of alcohol metabolism, oxidation of estradiol, & increased aromatization of testosterone to estradiol. Alcohol use can also disrupt the hypothalamic–pituitary–testicular axis, decreasing T levels. Frequent drinking also makes your liver fat, which contributes to estrogen production. All which can lead to, you guessed it bitch tits, gyno, or pseudogyno. Or just generally f'ing up your gainz.
Of course you already knew this and just wanted to throw jabs on a message board, didn't you?
Gbro
Member
Real tequila and corona guys eat tortilla chips. Just sayin....
MrRippedZilla
Member
A few logical flaws here:
- There is a big difference between any effect and a "noticeable" effect. Alcohol is a good example of this since it only produces a "noticeable" effect when consumed in excess, not in moderation.
To put things into perspective, consuming 30-40g of alcohol per day (about 3 beers) leads to a MASSIVE 6.8% reduction in T with no change in estradiol levels. This is an irrelevant change, especially for moderate drinkers who consume far less than this.
It only becomes relevant when we're talking about binge drinking, in this case consuming 23g of alcohol, about 10 beers, leads to a 23% reduction in T levels. You'll find the data in general to show around 20% reduction ONLY with excessive drinking.
- Using the excess to make a general point about the norm is bad logic.
- Also, you cannot extrapolate alcohol to nutrition because the metabolism is differs drastically.
Under normal conditions, nutrition isn't going to have any noticeable impact on any of this. It just isn't.
Evolutionman
New Member
Thanks for the logic lesson.
No, that's you're lack of reading comprehension.
Like Zilla said, having an affect and having a NOTICEABLE affect are two different things.
If you're on a cycle then your T won't go down and if you're off cycle you need a a lot of alcohol to have a CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT affect.
Since you're well read on the studies I'll assume you're aware but just conveniently forget to reference the studies that show no affect on acute testosterone levels post workout from 2-3drinks. You forgot to mention that acute intoxication in quite a few studies has shown no affect on strength or endurance. You forgot to mention alcohol's cardio protective properties, it's beneficial DHEAS affects, it's reducing of C reactive protein and fibrinogen, etc.
No, I wanted to correct some of the gibberish in your posts but you're free to interpret my posts as you see fit.
Now you advised that lean proteins and healthy fats can increase endogenous TT production. Well if someone is on cycle there is no endogenous production. If someone is off cycle then it'll only increase it if they're currently deficient in those things. My point from the beginning.
Since you like to appeal to extremes to unsuccessfully prove your point, let me try the same. You advised to eat a lot of crucifer out vegetables to help with estrogen metabolism due to their I3C and its dimer DIM content. Well I'm sure you're aware of the research showing DIM activates the ER-alpha receptor (the fuck good is estrogen metabolism going to help when the compound itself acts on the receptor as an agonist lol), DIM can also rob the thyroid of its iodine supply reducing thyroid efficiency and output, and DIM can promote tumor growth. Yup, let's load up on these foods so we can grow tumors... Appealing to an extreme is so much fun. I should do it more often like you
At least you said thanks. It was a free lesson after all.
I hate tortilla chips the other day with guacamole, fajitas, and gyno-causing taters (gasp)
Evolutionman
New Member
I forgot to thank you too, Doc. I'm sorry you misunderstood, but I nor OP ever said a thing about fucking cycles.
I'll digress and apologize to OP, only to offer:
good nutrition+ progressive lifting = gainz (on or off cycle)
I joined Meso for the wealth of information that the common Doc. can't dispense. I'm not sure why clinics don't recruit their top practitioner & endo's from forum boards. You've schooled me & won the point proving contest! I wasn't able to google, copy paste fast enough for you! gold star brother, gold star.
I'm heartily greatful you were able to admit to your multiple shortcomings and see the light of day. It's such a shame to see members so disillusioned with the parroting of crap that when someone such as yourself wakes up, I take great pride. I'm glad to have played a small role in your rebirth as a hopefully productive member.
With your knowledge of cruciferous vegetables and lean proteins, Im surprised you don't have a peer reviewed and studied pct protocol combining kale, top round steak, and broccoli. I can't imagine why Dr. Scally would recommend compounds such as arimidex and testosterone when a vegetable grown organically in the Elysian Fields could do the same job. The bottom line is that this is Meso and in 3 months your wildly misdirected past will soon be forgotten and in the future the quality of your posts will be judged on the cruciferousness of your vegetable intake.
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