Gyno and tren?

[mkulltra58]

You guys are right in me having to better educate myself. Okay well I had nolva on hand and knew my caberlone would be here soon as well as the aromosin. I admit to being stupid. I also plan on surgery but I need to get through college first and save up the 4K for that. In the mean time my Gyno isn't very bad, but I just was hoping y'all would have advice in reducing it enough to not be noticeable onstage. I mean I know Jeremy buenda has Gyno and he hides it well enough on stage to make it on the Olympia stage. Anyways my aromosin is Vermodje and nolva came from allday chemist and that's supposed to be pharm grade. If I had a legit source for pharm grade Letro I would have gone that route, but purchase peptides worked well enough in the past, but that was a while back ago. If someone could help me get Letro that would be awesome, but I know y'all don't like sharing sources with newbies and that's why I didn't even ask.

My plan was to drop my test prop and only take tren and Winstrol after this Gyno flat up, bc then technically my estrogen levels should go to near nothing since tren doesn't aromatize?

Tren is low aromatizing not no aromatizing. You'll probably want to keep some test in there.

 

[Docd187123]

Tren is low aromatizing not no aromatizing. You'll probably want to keep some test in there.

Trenbolone does not aromatize.

Side Effects (Estrogenic):

Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[mkulltra58]

Trenbolone does not aromatize.

Side Effects (Estrogenic):

Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

I stand corrected. You still don't want to use tren alone.

 

[AKphysique]

You must UNLEARN. Lol @Dr JIM

 

[Nutpuncher]

Did he compare his situation to someone that won mr Olympia twice.

 

[Dr JIM]

Trenbolone does not aromatize.

Side Effects (Estrogenic):

Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Chemical factoid ; Tren can NOT aromatize bc of the presence of double bonds in all three of it's rings

A fact MANY overlook. (Must be a "prolactin" thing again )

Perhaps even more important is although Nandrolone most certainly can increase
E-2, this effect is not mediated via peripheral aromatization.

Why is that important? AI's are not effective therapy for Nandrolone induced hyperestrogenemia!

jim

 

[Docd187123]

Chemical factoid ; Tren can NOT aromatize bc of the presence of double bonds in all three of it's rings

A fact MANY overlook. (Must be a "prolactin" thing again )

Perhaps even more important is although Nandrolone most certainly can increase
E-2 this effect is not mediated via peripheral aromatization.

Why is that important? AI's are not effective therapy for Nandrolone induced hyperestrogenemia!

Llewellyn suggests using an AI to control aromatization from nandrolone. You're saying it won't work? If so, is that bc peripheral aromatization in adipose tissue for example is markedly less than testosterone for example? Isn't the liver where most of nandrolone's aromatization happens?

 

[Dr JIM]

..
1) tren doesn't aromatize
2) me having to better educate myself.
3) I admit to being stupid
VERSUS
1) I mean I know Jeremy buenda has Gyno and he hides it well enough on stage to make it on the Olympia stage. I promise you HAVE NO IDEA what any pro is or is not doing, or is having to deal with, on specific terms, and such details make all the difference in the world
2) my caberlone would be here soon
3) purchase peptides worked well enough

Wisps of reason overcome by ignorance, denial and a failure to heed the advice of those MUCH more experienced, has led to the problems your now confronting fella.

STOP CYCLING !!!

GOOD LUCK

 

[Dr JIM]

Llewellyn suggests using an AI to control aromatization from nandrolone. You're saying it won't work? If so, is that bc peripheral aromatization in adipose tissue for example is markedly less than testosterone for example? Isn't the liver where most of nandrolone's aromatization happens?

I'd looked at his reference for that comment some time ago and it seemed to be a collective opinion with respect to peripheral aromatization of AAS in general, as peripheral aromatization is NOT a major contributor for the rise of E-2 noted with Nandrolone. (The reason is in some respects similar to Tren, Nandrolones chemical structure mandates a methylation step before oxidation can occur, and adipose tissue lacks that capability entirely)

Aromatization does occur within one of several hepatic cytochrome systems. Obviously then using a drug, such as an AI, that is primarily metabolized in the liver would pose considerable difficulties with respect to achieving effective INTRA-HEPATIC study state levels.

One means of overcoming this difficulty is to utilize drugs that possess significant second and/or third pass hepatic metabolism mechanisms. The latter has not been demonstrated to occur with reversible, non-steroidal AI's (at a level required) BUT this MAY be a benefit of irreversible steroidal AI's.

Admittedly I've not investigated the pharmacokinetics for the latter.

 

[Docd187123]

I'd looked at his reference for that comment some time ago and it seemed to be a collective opinion with respect to peripheral aromatization of AAS in general, as peripheral aromatization NOT a major contributor to the rise of E-2 which is noted with Nandrolone.

Aromatization does occur within one of several hepatic cytochrome systems. Obviously then using a drug, such as an AI, that is primarily metabolized in the liver would pose considerable difficulties with respect to achieving effective INTRA-HEPATIC study state levels.

One means of overcoming this difficulty is to utilize drugs that possess significant second and/or third pass hepatic metabolism mechanisms. The latter has not been demonstrated to occur with reversible, non-steroidal AI's (at a level required) BUT this MAY be a benefit of irreversible steroidal AI's

Any chance of pioneering a study to see exemestane vs arimidex or letro efficacy on nandrolone aromatization lol?

I also wonder if one were to make arimidex into an injectable preparation to bypass first pass, would this help?

 

[I Declare WAR!]

Nandrolone probably converts to estrogen, not through the action of aromatase, but through its 1-beta hydroxylated derivative. This means that estrogen inhibitors like Armidex, which decrease the activity of aromatase, may not stop nandrolone from aromatizing to estrogen.

Therefore, when one cycles nandrolone with testosterone, the combined amount of estrogen is greater. It is established that elevated levels of estrogen may lead to increased prolactin levels. Best to control the aromatization from testosterone at least when using nandrolone.

Can 19-nortestosterone derivatives be aromatized in the liver of adult humans? Are there clinical implications? - PubMed - NCBI

 

[I Declare WAR!]

^ that linked article isn't directly related to the topic at hand but it does underscore the fact that the process is much more complex than it might seem at first glance.

One needs to consider reactions not just of the parent molecule but also pharmacology of the metabolites and their reactions with other enzymes, acids and bases in the body.

 

[Dr JIM]

Any chance of pioneering a study to see exemestane vs arimidex or letro efficacy on nandrolone aromatization lol?

I also wonder if one were to make arimidex into an injectable preparation to bypass first pass, would this help?

1) Bc there are soooooo many questions that warrant further investigation, the task at this juncture is where, when, what and how research dollars are "best spent". The fact is bc the complications of AAS, other PEDs or ancillaries are readily PREVENTABLE research on on these compounds has taken a turn for the worse.

2) Oh your much more seasoned than that, bc essentially all drugs must pass thru Rome to reach the Mediterranean, metaphorically speaking, lol!

 

[Dr JIM]

1) Bc there are soooooo many questions that warrant further investigation, the task at this juncture is where, when, what and how research dollars are "best spent". The fact is bc the complications of AAS, other PEDs or ancillaries are readily PREVENTABLE research on on these compounds has taken a turn for the worse.

2) Oh your much more seasoned than that, bc essentially all drugs must pass thru Rome to reach the Mediterranean, metaphorically speaking, lol!

Hey DD I wasn't being sarcastic fella but to the contrary was only emphasizing my earlier point Hepatic entry, rather than bypass, is NEEDED for AI's to significantly influence the production of estrogen as a Nandrolone byproduct.

So the processes are competitive: on one end the liver is catabolizing the AI rendering it less effective BUT circumventing the hepatic system using a "bypass" mechanism limits the exposure of an AI to intra-hepatic aromatase. This is why several second or third order "bypass" are optimal as it allows the drug to accumulate WITHIN the hepatic sinusoids. I hope that makes sense ?

Bc the renal excretion (Mediterranean) of most drugs mandates a certain degree of enhanced water solubility a pass thru ROME (Liver) is a catabolic requirement. This will apply to AI's whether orally or parenterally administered.

Great questions fella!

JIM

 

[Docd187123]

Hey DD I wasn't being sarcastic fella but to the contrary was only emphasizing my earlier point Hepatic entry, rather than bypass, is NEEDED for AI's to significantly influence the production of estrogen as a Nandrolone byproduct.

So the processes are competitive: on one end the liver is catabolizing the AI rendering it less effective BUT circumventing the hepatic system using a "bypass" mechanism limits the exposure of an AI to intra-hepatic aromatase. This is why several second or third order "bypass" are optimal as it allows the drug to accumulate WITHIN the hepatic sinusoids. I hope that makes sense ?

Bc the renal excretion (Mediterranean) of most drugs mandates a certain degree of enhanced water solubility a pass thru ROME (Liver) is catabolic requirement, and the same applies to AI's whether orally or parenterally administered.

That clarification makes much more sense. You want the drug to sit in the liver vs just bypassing it and re-enter systemic circulation.

 

[Dr JIM]

Of course one huge problem inherent to such a process is the systemic concentration will often exceed the hepatic concentration several fold and result in intolerable toxicity.

As an aside that's one reason "chemo" is ineffective or MUCH less so, once
metastatic disease involves the liver.
Few drugs can hang out in the liver and not be metabolized by it SOONER rafter than later.

Jim

 

[Lman]

So what is yalls general consensus on tren and nolva. Do they actually interact or no?

 

[Dr JIM]

Interact in what way, be specific!

Never mind this question was discussed at length but it's not to surprising you didn't "get it" !

GOOD LUCK

 

[Lman]

Well isn't there the opinion nolva causes your progesterone receptors to be more sensitive or something like that. Like you can actually make Gyno worse when using tren and nolva

 

[Dr JIM]

Well isn't there the opinion nolva causes your progesterone receptors to be more sensitive or something like that. Like you can actually make Gyno worse when using tren and nolva

Your spoon-feeding session has now ended, try a new approach, like READING for Godsake!