Hair loss & AAS, redux: A combined science & bro-science approach... attempt at a per-compound comparison of AAS potencies to induce hair loss

[Type-IIx]

How much t3 are you running?

steckdose0 is a good bro but can (as he is human) make mistakes of attribution. Long-term use of T3/exogenous thyroid hormones does not chronically suppress HPT axis functioning (hypothalamo-thyroidal axis) as this axis is resilient and not chronically suppressed.

While true that hypothyroidism is associated with hair loss, it does not follow from anything steckdose0 said here that his hair loss is actually attributable to hypothyroidism. It's based on the following logic:

He always ran T3 with AAS
He was shedding hair, so he stopped AAS (went to a cruise; ostensibly stopped T3 as well)
He resumed AAS (with T3, as he always does)
... This time, unlike previously, he did not shed hair

If he always ran T3 with AAS, then some other factor must be responsible for his not shedding hair under the same conditions (if AAS, then T3) as previously.

Steckdose0 is also convinced tren causes him bloat, when this is impossible per se (quite opposite). Humans are just really poor at assessing causation, especially when they manipulate multiple variables (i.e., drug intakes) simultaneously.

Androgens as a class may decrease levels of thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG), resulting in decreased total T4 serum levels and increased resin uptake of T3 and T4... But cause hair loss by the already described mechanisms.

And even with the use of rhGH, any observed central hypothyroidism that occurs after rhGH use is not due to GH causing the condition (it rather reveals its pre-existence).

 

[ItsDaBoii]

steckdose0 is a good bro but can (as he is human) make mistakes of attribution. Long-term use of T3/exogenous thyroid hormones does not chronically suppress HPT axis functioning (hypothalamo-thyroidal axis) as this axis is resilient and not chronically suppressed.

While true that hypothyroidism is associated with hair loss, it does not follow from anything steckdose0 said here that his hair loss is actually attributable to hypothyroidism. It's based on the following logic:

He always ran T3 with AAS
He was shedding hair, so he stopped AAS (went to a cruise; ostensibly stopped T3 as well)
He resumed AAS (with T3, as he always does)
... This time, unlike previously, he did not shed hair

If he always ran T3 with AAS, then some other factor must be responsible for his not shedding hair under the same conditions (if AAS, then T3) as previously.

Steckdose0 is also convinced tren causes him bloat, when this is impossible per se (quite opposite). Humans are just really poor at assessing causation, especially when they manipulate multiple variables (i.e., drug intakes) simultaneously.

Androgens as a class may decrease levels of thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG), resulting in decreased total T4 serum levels and increased resin uptake of T3 and T4... But cause hair loss by the already described mechanisms.

And even with the use of rhGH, any observed central hypothyroidism that occurs after rhGH use is not due to GH causing the condition (it rather reveals its pre-existence).

Thanks for the detailed explanation, really appreciate it!

Can too much t3 (75-100mcg) cause hair loss?

 

[Mechanic]

"Primobolan - One of the less androgenic steroids. If you are concerned about hairloss this steroid is for you. It's much more anabolic than it is androgenic"

Really interested what people here will say about that statement

Didn't cause hair loss for me on 525mg weekly. Some people report shedding on a gram a week.

 

[Dr.V.P.C.]

Chemical treatments only alleviates the process.(with lots of sides)
Hair transplant is the only real treatment.

 

[Type-IIx]

Chemical treatments only alleviates the process.(with lots of sides)
Hair transplant is the only real treatment.

If prone to MPB, sure. Chemical treatments like oral minoxidil & topical finasteride (that are well tolerated) might be all that someone who experiences mild to moderate shedding on supra-physiologic AAS needs. To analogize, sometimes, controlled burns are a solution, rather than total conflagration.

 

[Trenbologna]

steckdose0 is a good bro but can (as he is human) make mistakes of attribution. Long-term use of T3/exogenous thyroid hormones does not chronically suppress HPT axis functioning (hypothalamo-thyroidal axis) as this axis is resilient and not chronically suppressed.

While true that hypothyroidism is associated with hair loss, it does not follow from anything steckdose0 said here that his hair loss is actually attributable to hypothyroidism. It's based on the following logic:

He always ran T3 with AAS
He was shedding hair, so he stopped AAS (went to a cruise; ostensibly stopped T3 as well)
He resumed AAS (with T3, as he always does)
... This time, unlike previously, he did not shed hair

If he always ran T3 with AAS, then some other factor must be responsible for his not shedding hair under the same conditions (if AAS, then T3) as previously.

Steckdose0 is also convinced tren causes him bloat, when this is impossible per se (quite opposite). Humans are just really poor at assessing causation, especially when they manipulate multiple variables (i.e., drug intakes) simultaneously.

Androgens as a class may decrease levels of thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG), resulting in decreased total T4 serum levels and increased resin uptake of T3 and T4... But cause hair loss by the already described mechanisms.

And even with the use of rhGH, any observed central hypothyroidism that occurs after rhGH use is not due to GH causing the condition (it rather reveals its pre-existence).

Question and comment-

I've been on trt 200mg/week cypionate for about 3 years (I'm 46). I decided to cut my cyp in half and add 100mg tren. I got much more bloated and not only in my face but my legs and even hands as well. I do have some venous insufficiency issues. So would I be correct to say the odds are it was the tren exasperating my venous insufficiency causing the water retention? I know for a fact there are guys who swear trenbolone causes them bloat but as has been discussed (and as I am personally experiencing) there is often an issue with assessing causation. Even when I reduced the tren to 70mg/week I had the water issue. I had eplerenone and bumetanide on hand and this helped the water retention substantially (almost 100%) BUT I didn't want to take the risk and simply treat the water weight symptom so I dropped the tren and went back to 200mg cypionate. I've taken Tren in the past when much younger and had zero negative sides and responded extremely well to it.

The ramble-
(Interesting side note I absolutely experienced better strength gains using 70mg tren ace with 100mg cyp/week over the 200mg cyp alone. 70mg tren/is effective at least for some people). I have been on trt now for 3 years. I have tren, anadrol and superdrol all of which I realize I just can't risk using anymore do to the potential harm to my heart related to blood pressure/venous insufficiency and a-fib)

In the last 12 months I dropped over 100lbs November of last year I was 6'4" 330lbs dropped to 228lbs) and started the tren to help me recover the lost strength and any possible lost muscle that the trt alone didn't prevent. When I started the tren my hair started to thin out. At first I thought it was the tren causing the hair loss but then I researched that the extreme weight loss which I experienced in such a short period of time can also cause hair thinning over time. I also was very sloppy about nutrition while I dieted along with fasting.
I stopped dieting temporarily and began a hair loss protocol of RU58841, topical and oral finasteride, oral dutasteride, and oral and topical minoxidil. It's been about 3 months and my hair has actually recovered substantially but there is no way for me to know if simply eating normally again is what caused the hair to return or stopping the tren or the hair loss treatments. I'm done with the RU58841 and topical finasteride but am continuing oral fin/oral dutasteride/oral & topical minoxidil. I haven't had any low blood pressure issues or any side effects from this current protocol.
I think another culprit could have been stress/weight-loss-induced telogen effluvium which can last 6 months. So I will discontinue the protocol after 6 months to see if the hair stays strong. If it does, then I will assume my diet and possibly the addition of tren caused the thinning. I do know something I did (or stopped doing) got the hair back. So yeah after I wait out the 6 month telogen effluvium phase I will stop the protocol and if hair loss resumes I'm just gonna shave the noggin since I don't want to take the DHT blockers for life. (Although I might stay on the oral Minoxidil since it's so damn convenient and see if that spares the hair). If it stays I would love to experiment with the tren again after that to see if my hair thins again but as I explained that's obviously just not an experiment worth trying (although the bro-science is strong with me and I would be lying if I didn't say I wasn't still tempted to try the 100mg cyp/70mg tren combo again).
I won't, but still...
Sorry for the rambling I just haven't shared on Meso in a while. Sup fellas, ladies! Everybody stay safe.

(Oh normal test levels for me is around 200 and has dipped even lower in the past. Idiopathic hypogonadism since early 20's before my weight gain).

 

[Trenbologna]

If prone to MPB, sure. Chemical treatments like oral minoxidil & topical finasteride (that are well tolerated) might be all that someone who experiences mild to moderate shedding on supra-physiologic AAS needs. To analogize, sometimes, controlled burns are a solution, rather than total conflagration.

Was the stuff about the Dalton weight of topical finasteride making it not worth trying more bro-science?

 

[Type-IIx]

Question and comment-

I've been on trt 200mg/week cypionate for about 3 years (I'm 46). I decided to cut my cyp in half and add 100mg tren. I got much more bloated and not only in my face but my legs and even hands as well. I do have some venous insufficiency issues. So would I be correct to say the odds are it was the tren exasperating my venous insufficiency causing the water retention? I know for a fact there are guys who swear trenbolone causes them bloat but as has been discussed (and as I am personally experiencing) there is often an issue with assessing causation. Even when I reduced the tren to 70mg/week I had the water issue. I had eplerenone and bumetanide on hand and this helped the water retention substantially (almost 100%) BUT I didn't want to take the risk and simply treat the water weight symptom so I dropped the tren and went back to 200mg cypionate. I've taken Tren in the past when much younger and had zero negative sides and responded extremely well to it.

The ramble-
(Interesting side note I absolutely experienced better strength gains using 70mg tren ace with 100mg cyp/week over the 200mg cyp alone. 70mg tren/is effective at least for some people). I have been on trt now for 3 years. I have tren, anadrol and superdrol all of which I realize I just can't risk using anymore do to the potential harm to my heart related to blood pressure/venous insufficiency and a-fib)

In the last 12 months I dropped over 100lbs November of last year I was 6'4" 330lbs dropped to 228lbs) and started the tren to help me recover the lost strength and any possible lost muscle that the trt alone didn't prevent. When I started the tren my hair started to thin out. At first I thought it was the tren causing the hair loss but then I researched that the extreme weight loss which I experienced in such a short period of time can also cause hair thinning over time. I also was very sloppy about nutrition while I dieted along with fasting.
I stopped dieting temporarily and began a hair loss protocol of RU58841, topical and oral finasteride, oral dutasteride, and oral and topical minoxidil. It's been about 3 months and my hair has actually recovered substantially but there is no way for me to know if simply eating normally again is what caused the hair to return or stopping the tren or the hair loss treatments. I'm done with the RU58841 and topical finasteride but am continuing oral fin/oral dutasteride/oral & topical minoxidil. I haven't had any low blood pressure issues or any side effects from this current protocol.
I think another culprit could have been stress/weight-loss-induced telogen effluvium which can last 6 months. So I will discontinue the protocol after 6 months to see if the hair stays strong. If it does, then I will assume my diet and possibly the addition of tren caused the thinning. I do know something I did (or stopped doing) got the hair back. So yeah after I wait out the 6 month telogen effluvium phase I will stop the protocol and if hair loss resumes I'm just gonna shave the noggin since I don't want to take the DHT blockers for life. (Although I might stay on the oral Minoxidil since it's so damn convenient and see if that spares the hair). If it stays I would love to experiment with the tren again after that to see if my hair thins again but as I explained that's obviously just not an experiment worth trying (although the bro-science is strong with me and I would be lying if I didn't say I wasn't still tempted to try the 100mg cyp/70mg tren combo again).
I won't, but still...
Sorry for the rambling I just haven't shared on Meso in a while. Sup fellas, ladies! Everybody stay safe.

(Oh normal test levels for me is around 200 and has dipped even lower in the past. Idiopathic hypogonadism since early 20's before my weight gain).

Certainly, Tren is by all acounts a potent hematinic agent (increasing Hb/HCT) and, by increasing blood viscosity, can reduce blood flow to the extremities where venous insufficiency is already marked. As a progestin, it also increases sensitivity to estrogens in, e.g., breast tissue. Tren may not have been the sole factor in your hair loss, but it is extremely potent at this, and so it was a potent factor.

 

[Type-IIx]

Was the stuff about the Dalton weight of topical finasteride making it not worth trying more bro-science?

There are a plethora of different delivery systems (e.g., polymersomes, vesicular nanocarriers, vesicular ethosomal carriers, liposomes and niosomes, liquid crystalline nanoparticles, topical solutions and gels) that enhance topical efficacy. It's effective by the topical route even using propylene glycol as is commonly used. In a phase III, randomized, controlled trial, the efficacies of topical 0.25% w/w finasteride spray (1-4 sprays; 50-200 μl/day) and once-daily finasteride 1 mg oral tablet were similar when administered for 24 weeks (mean change from baseline, 20.2 vs. 21.1 hairs/cm^2). Additionally, a double-blind, randomized trial compared the efficacies of twice-daily finasteride 1% topical gel and once-daily finasteride 1 mg oral tablet for 6 months, and found similar results in both groups. Moreover, a combination of topical minoxidil and topical finasteride may enhance efficacy.

Khan MZU, Khan SA, Ubaid M, Shah A, Kousar R, Murtaza G. Finasteride Topical Delivery Systems for Androgenetic Alopecia. Curr Drug Deliv. 2018;15(8):1100-1111. doi: 10.2174/1567201815666180124112905.

Gupta AK, Talukder M. Topical finasteride for male and female pattern hair loss: Is it a safe and effective alternative? J Cosmet Dermatol. 2022 May;21(5):1841-1848. doi: 10.1111/jocd.14895.

 

[Trenbologna]

There are a plethora of different delivery systems (e.g., polymersomes, vesicular nanocarriers, vesicular ethosomal carriers, liposomes and niosomes, liquid crystalline nanoparticles, topical solutions and gels) that enhance topical efficacy. It's effective by the topical route even using propylene glycol as is commonly used. In a phase III, randomized, controlled trial, the efficacies of topical 0.25% w/w finasteride spray (1-4 sprays; 50-200 μl/day) and once-daily finasteride 1 mg oral tablet were similar when administered for 24 weeks (mean change from baseline, 20.2 vs. 21.1 hairs/cm^2). Additionally, a double-blind, randomized trial compared the efficacies of twice-daily finasteride 1% topical gel and once-daily finasteride 1 mg oral tablet for 6 months, and found similar results in both groups. Moreover, a combination of topical minoxidil and topical finasteride may enhance efficacy.

Khan MZU, Khan SA, Ubaid M, Shah A, Kousar R, Murtaza G. Finasteride Topical Delivery Systems for Androgenetic Alopecia. Curr Drug Deliv. 2018;15(8):1100-1111. doi: 10.2174/1567201815666180124112905.

Gupta AK, Talukder M. Topical finasteride for male and female pattern hair loss: Is it a safe and effective alternative? J Cosmet Dermatol. 2022 May;21(5):1841-1848. doi: 10.1111/jocd.14895.

Thank you for that. Yes I did use the propylene glycol solution.
Can I ask one more question?
In your opinion between tren, anadrol and superdrol is there one that stands out as safest for hair or are they all equal? Safest for BP? I think I know the answer but it's been a while since I've researched it. They all suck for this was what I came down on.
Also, would any compound other than RU (understanding it may not work at all considering the lack of positive anecdotal reports) and minoxidil be worth trying to combat tren hair loss?
Derma rolling I'm trying but I'm curious if you are a fan of it and any other possible treatment?

 

[Type-IIx]

Thank you for that. Yes I did use the propylene glycol solution.
Can I ask one more question?
In your opinion between tren, anadrol and superdrol is there one that stands out as safest for hair or are they all equal? Safest for BP? I think I know the answer but it's been a while since I've researched it. They all suck for this was what I came down on.
Also, would any compound other than RU (understanding it may not work at all considering the lack of positive anecdotal reports) and minoxidil be worth trying to combat tren hair loss?
Derma rolling I'm trying but I'm curious if you are a fan of it and any other possible treatment?

Well, that is a quandary, trying to meaningfully differentiate between those three compound (Tren, Drol, Sdrol) with respect to hair loss & hypertensive effects... I'd venture to say that on a per mg basis, Sdrol > Tren > Drol. But as typically used (> optimal doses, above the maximal nitrogen retention dose/response), it's all a wash; they'll be virtually indistinguishable.

I suggest reading Parts I & II (perhaps in reverse order, if you want to get to the more experimental methods first) from the title thread for experimental & validated methods to combat hair loss.