very important topic , most harmful steroid to body organs , and the most toxic to the brain ? not tren (SCIENCE BACKED)

[Millard]

I also understand "Well we need to discuss the different compounds and which are more dangerous and for what reasons, etc". However, individuality also makes this a mostly meritless exercise, as anyone who has followed these boards long enough knows. Too much individuality in response.

It's a huge challenge. That's for sure. And it's not like the medical research community is rushing to conduct/publish applicable studies for this marginalized community. So we do the best with what data we have and are indebted/grateful to all the intelligent/motivated individuals who make sense of bridging the gap between research/practice. It's all we got.

 

[Type-IIx]

It's a huge challenge. That's for sure. And it's not like the medical research community is rushing to conduct/publish applicable studies for this marginalized community. So we do the best with what data we have and are indebted/grateful to all the intelligent/motivated individuals who make sense of bridging the gap between research/practice. It's all we got.

I just try to ignore Perfect Solution Fallacies and False Dilemmas as best I can. I sincerely thank you for your reasonable attempts at reasoning. Cynicism is a potent disincentive for the individual and those he infects.

 

[Iamnatty]

Anhedonia, major bad combo of increased libido with ED, severe depression. Ran it twice 20 weeks and 19 weeks. I probably have just known all the outliers though. Hard to make any hard conclusions on incidence rate at the population level given the data available. Age, dose, duration, preexisting conditions, etc.

My very scholarly conclusion is AAS make you real dumb in the short term and anti social of course. Glad I never used them during school years. Young people stay away.

I see what you mean and I had some depression the last time I ran deca. And would like to run it again as npp and see if I can mitigate any of those side effects. But I have a friend who can run lots of deca and responds well and says he has no side effects (except some gyno that can flare up) and feels great . So it’s crazy how 2 different people can respond differently like that.

 

[anabolicmanx19]

one more important thing guys

the administration of deca decreased the number of newly born neurons in the dentate gyrus "part of the brain is located in the hippocampus" by 75% .

implying that short-term administration of deca is enough to significantly impair neurogenic processes .

noteworthy the dentate gyrus is one of the few regions of the adult brain to exhibit neurogenesis .

we're not sure if the same result apply to tren

19-Nortestosterone influences neural stem cell proliferation and neurogenesis in the rat brain - PubMed

 

[Type-IIx]

Spoke with @PeterBond who was kind enough to catch me up with the state of the literature & the mismatch between the "testosterone neurotoxicity" data vs. what actually occurs in the real world.

Due to concentrations used, differences between tissue compartment, & animal vs. human metabolism, studies, including the one shared here by @anabolicmanx19 do not reflect human use, and the data does not support testosterone neurotoxicity when infeasible doses/concentrations are used.

Specifically, here, the concentration at which statistical significance was detected for potential apoptosis (programmed cell death) by testosterone, nandrolone, and trenbolone was 100 µM in cortical cells (that which has crossed the blood-brain barrier).

Not only is it physiologically impossible to reach such concentrations in cortical cells, where concentrations are magnitudes lower than blood concentrations, it is absurd to even consider these concentrations in blood.

100 µM ≈ 2,880,000 ng/dL

Two million eight hundred and eighty thousand ng/dL

You couldn't possibly inject this if you tried to fill up every muscle depot with the highest concentration gear you could find.

Besides that, all the concentrations were absurd that they used, even their lowest. The lowest concentration they measured would require administering more than 6 grams of weekly AAS, just to reach those concentrations in blood, which, as mentioned, are still orders of magnitude greater than that which crosses the blood-brain barrier to reach cortical cells.

All in all, the study design here is totally ridiculous to be interpreted in this manner in which OP & apparently many others read these. It's not applicable to man.

 

[anabolicmanx19]

Spoke with @PeterBond who was kind enough to catch me up with the state of the literature & the mismatch between the "testosterone neurotoxicity" data vs. what actually occurs in the real world.

Due to concentrations used, differences between tissue compartment, & animal vs. human metabolism, studies, including the one shared here by @anabolicmanx19 do not reflect human use, and the data does not support testosterone neurotoxicity when infeasible doses/concentrations are used.

Specifically, here, the concentration at which statistical significance was detected for potential apoptosis (programmed cell death) by testosterone, nandrolone, and trenbolone was 100 µM in cortical cells (that which has crossed the blood-brain barrier).

Not only is it physiologically impossible to reach such concentrations in cortical cells, where concentrations are magnitudes lower than blood concentrations, it is absurd to even consider these concentrations in blood.

100 µM ≈ 2,880,000 ng/dL

Two million eight hundred and eighty thousand ng/dL

You couldn't possibly inject this if you tried to fill up every muscle depot with the highest concentration gear you could find.

Besides that, all the concentrations were absurd that they used, even their lowest. The lowest concentration they measured would require administering more than 6 grams of weekly AAS, just to reach those concentrations in blood, which, as mentioned, are still orders of magnitude greater than that which crosses the blood-brain barrier to reach cortical cells.

All in all, the study design here is totally ridiculous to be interpreted in this manner in which OP & apparently many others read these. It's not applicable to man.

there is one thing
smaller cortical volume and thinner cortex seen among AAS users ( cerebral atrophy ) has been reported previously , and it is has been proven in this study that aas kills cortical cell neurons already
the researchers actually said this in the study :
" The cortical cell death detected herein could be one explanation for the smaller cortical volume and thinner cortex seen among AAS-using weightlifters ( Bjornebekk et al., 2017 ) "
so i think there at least a relationship
and the doses used here are difficult to reflect them precisely between aas users

 

[Type-IIx]

there is one thing
smaller cortical volume and thinner cortex seen among AAS users ( cerebral atrophy ) has been reported previously , and it is has been proven in this study that aas kills cortical cell neurons already
the researchers actually said this in the study :
" The cortical cell death detected herein could be one explanation for the smaller cortical volume and thinner cortex seen among AAS-using weightlifters ( Bjornebekk et al., 2017 ) "
so i think there at least a relationship
and the doses used here are difficult to reflect them precisely between aas users

First of all, I don't know that. Where is this data?

Are low cortical volumes associated with risk-taking or impulsivity that might be a causal factor in choosing to use AAS to begin with?

In any case, none of this is germane to the conversation about this study.

This study failed to show that even 6 g AAS weekly affects cortical cells, so, what?

You are now arguing that this study suggests "something might be happening!" that it actually does not.

 

[readalot]

6 g AAS weekly

I see by your eagerness and the wonder and hope which your eyes express, my friend, that you expect to be informed of the secret with which I am acquainted; that cannot be; listen patiently until the end of my story, and you will easily perceive why I am reserved upon that subject. I will not lead you on, unguarded and ardent as I then was, to your destruction and infallible misery. Learn from me, if not by my precepts, at least by my example, how dangerous is the acquirement of knowledge and how much happier that man is who believes his native town to be the world, than he who aspires to become greater than his nature will allow.

[R]

HAPPY NEW YEAR hopefully free from autonomic dysfunction, heart failure and the rest!

Cortical cells are the last to worry about.

 

[anabolicmanx19]

First of all, I don't know that. Where is this data?

Are low cortical volumes associated with risk-taking or impulsivity that might be a causal factor in choosing to use AAS to begin with?

In any case, none of this is germane to the conversation about this study.

This study failed to show that even 6 g AAS weekly affects cortical cells, so, what?

You are now arguing that this study suggests "something might be happening!" that it actually does not.

i mean this study bro

https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(16)32529-X/fulltext

 

[readalot]

Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..

Also, I haven't read the mouse study, but it occurs to me that in the early days of Low Carb, there was an attempt to show that (I think) olive oil was toxic using FMD as a measure. However I believe Volek subsequently showed that it was a short-term affect which disappeared after several weeks...

www.excelmale.com

Androgen Effects on the Adrenergic System of the Vascular, Airway, and Cardiac Myocytes and Their Relevance in Pathological Processes

<i>Introduction</i>. Androgen signaling comprises nongenomic and genomic pathways. Nongenomic actions are not related to the binding of the androgen receptor (AR) and occur rapidly. The genomic effects implicate the binding to a cytosolic AR, leading to protein synthesis. Both events are...

www.hindawi.com

See Figs. 2 and 4

Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..

I have heard of cases where the only thing used was testosterone and lead to a similar situation. I am pretty sure that’s what this case study illustrates: testosterone alone led to this gentleman’s cardiac issues.

www.excelmale.com

Enjoy. The whole thread is fun.

 

[Type-IIx]

i mean this study bro

https://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(16)32529-X/fulltext

Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..

Also, I haven't read the mouse study, but it occurs to me that in the early days of Low Carb, there was an attempt to show that (I think) olive oil was toxic using FMD as a measure. However I believe Volek subsequently showed that it was a short-term affect which disappeared after several weeks...

www.excelmale.com

Androgen Effects on the Adrenergic System of the Vascular, Airway, and Cardiac Myocytes and Their Relevance in Pathological Processes

<i>Introduction</i>. Androgen signaling comprises nongenomic and genomic pathways. Nongenomic actions are not related to the binding of the androgen receptor (AR) and occur rapidly. The genomic effects implicate the binding to a cytosolic AR, leading to protein synthesis. Both events are...

www.hindawi.com

See Figs. 2 and 4

Nandrolone for Mood | Feeling much Better..

I have heard of cases where the only thing used was testosterone and lead to a similar situation. I am pretty sure that’s what this case study illustrates: testosterone alone led to this gentleman’s cardiac issues.

www.excelmale.com

Enjoy. The whole thread is fun.

Do either of you actually think I can be fucking bothered to read anything more on this matter, given what I just wrote? You think I give a fraction of a fuck about claims about AAS and autonomic dysfunction?

Jesus.

 

[readalot]

You think I give a fraction of a fuck about claims about AAS and autonomic dysfunction?

Evidently not. You aren't including HRV and HRR as metrics in your study.

Seeking Fitness Tracker Data (e.g., Whoop, Oura) for Research Study: $25 Coupon for Ampouletude.com

I am seeking fitness tracker data to be used in a research study about AAS effects on sleep (focusing on trenbolone, but also broadening the inquiry) & resting heart rate, but also hoping to identify any other interesting parameters that might be implicated. Prerequisites: Data, that includes...

thinksteroids.com

Meanwhile, Got humans?

Test C, Tren A, Oxandrolone

I know @unreal24278 posted this study a while back and it’s a real gem (kind of hiding in plain sight in terms of tangible measurements on an observational study) in my opinion testing on actual humans. Self reported dosages per week were modest on the AAS arm: Measurable and significant...

forums.t-nation.com

Cardiac autonomic dysfunction in anabolic steroid users - PubMed

This study aimed to evaluate if androgenic-anabolic steroids (AAS) abuse may induce cardiac autonomic dysfunction in recreational trained subjects. Twenty-two men were volunteered for the study. The AAS group (n = 11) utilized AAS at mean dosage of 410 ± 78.6 mg/week. All of them were submitted...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[JUNGLE JOE]

if you view the first post and the text of the graph, it states, 15 mg per kg dosage !
This would equate to 1500 mg for a 220 pound man when the usual nandrolone dosage per week is about 200.
If you usually eat 3 pizza slices, what do you think would happen if you ate 22 slices in one sitting ?
If you usually drink 1 gallon of water a day, what do you think would happen if you drank 7.5 ?

Administering insane doses to rodents does not equate to sane doses to humans.

What doesnt make sense is all the focus on US as to why we are taking this when there is NO FOCUS is on the government and the pharmaceutical manufacturers to approve, manufacture and sell products that they claim are bad for us and then criticize us for taking them.

Anabolic steroids arent raised from seeds on a farm.
Many of them were designed, approved and manufactured by the same governments who condemn us for using what THEY MADE !!!!!

Hows about we focus on THEM fixing the problem of side effects if any. THEY made and approved this stuff. They can take it off the market and or make improvements. The question here should equally be upon those in power as to why to them rather than why to us.

I know that for example, Turinabol is a designer steroid but it doesnt change the core matter of the majority of steroids being approved and made by the same governments that condemn our usage of them.

Marijuana now is becoming legal because people stood up against the b.s. of it being all bad. It isnt.
Just like steroids. So now, because marijuana has some benefit, its seen as being okay ! Do steroids have any benefit ? Of course they do.

Bodybuilders like us should take a stand against the establishment on the outrageous overblown, one sided propaganda of a.s.

Eating fried foods at mc donalds isnt healthy either but i dont see anyone giving a damn about fried food. Do you ? What about liposuction and plastic surgery ?!?!?
What about breast augmentation and reduction, etc !

What is all this focus on A.S. for ? Its totally insane.Every sport has its negatives. What about boxing, football and race car driving ?
Why the heck cant bodybuilding has a little downside without all the couch potatoes having an issue ?

Jealousy and envy. Leave us and out sport alone.

 

[readalot]

if you view the first post and the text of the graph, it states, 15 mg per kg dosage !
This would equate to 1500 mg for a 220 pound man when the usual nandrolone dosage per week is about 200.

Uh no. The mg/kg value is for rat. Familiarize yourself with the concept of HED - human equivalent dose. I linked threads above that go into plenty of detail on that.

Here you go (again):

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

A key degree of freedom (that makes your question difficult to answer with a reasonable degree of confidence) is time. Chronic toxicity or acute toxicity? The figure above, while simplified, is instructive as an introduction. Add time above to make a 3d plot which would consider chronic...

www.excelmale.com

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

A key degree of freedom (that makes your question difficult to answer with a reasonable degree of confidence) is time. Chronic toxicity or acute toxicity? The figure above, while simplified, is instructive as an introduction. Add time above to make a 3d plot which would consider chronic...

www.excelmale.com

 

[JUNGLE JOE]

Hi readalot. I know it's for a rat.
The issue is whether or not you believe in " human equivalent dose " .
you know, medical experts can't even get training science figured out ! Hoe many years were we led to believe muscle fibers can't change when in fact they can in response to exercise demands over time.
Experts also claimed exercise enlarges the heart which is.... bad ! Now that's known to be bs.
However experts went unto claim now steroids do it which is.... bad.
Why don't we look at good Ole bro science and a survey here to figure out if nandrolone for instance screws with the brain rather than give an insane dose to a rat and believe this carries over to humans.

 

[BoloYang2023]

hey @marknyc read this thread and doubt the things we all said thanks also refer your friend to read this too

 

[OldGHGuy]

Uh no. The mg/kg value is for rat. Familiarize yourself with the concept of HED - human equivalent dose. I linked threads above that go into plenty of detail on that.

Here you go (again):

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

A key degree of freedom (that makes your question difficult to answer with a reasonable degree of confidence) is time. Chronic toxicity or acute toxicity? The figure above, while simplified, is instructive as an introduction. Add time above to make a 3d plot which would consider chronic...

www.excelmale.com

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

A key degree of freedom (that makes your question difficult to answer with a reasonable degree of confidence) is time. Chronic toxicity or acute toxicity? The figure above, while simplified, is instructive as an introduction. Add time above to make a 3d plot which would consider chronic...

www.excelmale.com

Respect all. I am also trying to evaluate the nandrolone study referenced. I also do not have a good understanding of HED. Rather than read thru/study/calculate the excellent material provided by @readalot, what is the HED in the nandrolone study, which used 15mg/kg in rats? In case anyone forgot the simple equation:

HED (mg / kg = Animal NOAEL mg/kg) × (Weightanimal [kg]/Weighthuman [kg])(1–0.67)

 

[readalot]

hey @marknyc

Gone before I could change his mind. I feel bad for his "friend". That thread is also gone but was full of useful info.

 

[MadaFacor]

Gone before I could change his mind. I feel bad for his "friend". That thread is also gone but was full of useful info.

Wait what? That thread was epic. How do you get stuff deleted on here?

 

[readalot]

Wait what? That thread was epic. How do you get stuff deleted on here?

Threads seem to be seldom deleted here. I was surprised as there was a lot of stuff there that would help a newbie.