very important topic , most harmful steroid to body organs , and the most toxic to the brain ? not tren (SCIENCE BACKED)

[Type-IIx]

Understood. The anecdote on afib was in the interest of harm reduction. Screening clients for congenital heart abnormality/arrythmia/blocks before running clen. Small number but high severity as you state.

Today I saw the reference to Duchaine by Millard and shared the article. From there you made a veiled reference to what appeared to be GHB. That immediately made me think of the book chapter on GHB research fiasco. Biden is a common thread to all of this (AAS, GHB, etc) as he played a major role in 1990 and 2000s legislation in US.

Correct that these had nothing to do with cartels.

TBF, Carrot Top had nothing to do with thread topic either LOL.

Thanks. I really appreciate your work. Will try to stay on topic better. Too much reading.

Gah, you shouldn't mention that nasty drug, that was harm reduction on my part.

 

[Type-IIx]

The joke is making the assumption that a reduction in liver weight indicates liver damage. The study does not make a conclusion on the effects of this difference in organ weight, it only denotes their existence. All androgens will have a negative impact on the liver, as most drugs will. I can tell you nandrolone is certainly not the most hepatotoxic compared to the other compounds in the study. Not that any of this matters in the long term after cessation.

In regards to the other parts of the study. The long term effects of steroids on neurologic function is not well understood, and this study proves nothing in that regard. Now short term, nandrolone is probably pretty bad for cognition with regards to effect on dopamine...Though not something I have any personal anecdotes on as I don't feel different on any compound, likely from anhedonia I've had long before I used any steroid.

I also don't consider it fair to compare similar dosage of compounds, as their affinity and action on the AR is quite different. Or at least, you should take that into account when comparing the data.

@anabolicmanx19 have to agree until I read this paper, and I promise I will (so long as I can find it) and respond as requested. It'll have to be, given the current bulk of the literature; and it's unlikely to be since it's merely a summary from a doctoral thesis, that I can hopefully find in full.

If you have the full text, please message me privately. Thank you, brother!

 

[anabolicmanx19]

The joke is making the assumption that a reduction in liver weight indicates liver damage. The study does not make a conclusion on the effects of this difference in organ weight, it only denotes their existence. All androgens will have a negative impact on the liver, as most drugs will. I can tell you nandrolone is certainly not the most hepatotoxic compared to the other compounds in the study. Not that any of this matters in the long term after cessation.

In regards to the other parts of the study. The long term effects of steroids on neurologic function is not well understood, and this study proves nothing in that regard. Now short term, nandrolone is probably pretty bad for cognition with regards to effect on dopamine...Though not something I have any personal anecdotes on as I don't feel different on any compound, likely from anhedonia I've had long before I used any steroid.

I also don't consider it fair to compare similar dosage of compounds, as their affinity and action on the AR is quite different. Or at least, you should take that into account when comparing the data.

change in size means function alterations and if course its not a good thing with deca , its toxic effect on the liver already reported before as I clarified
in the previous comment
and yes you are right about cessation
there are some studies about long term aas users and their brain structural and functional health

 

[Type-IIx]

change in size means function alterations and if course its not a good thing with deca , also its toxic effect on the liver already reported before as i cited before

and yes you are right about cessation

there are some studies about long term aas users and their brain structural and functional health

Not necessarily! Enlarged liver... does that sound good?

AAS are thymolytic (reduce size of the thymus). Phytoecdysteroids (e.g., ecdysterone, turkesterone) are thymotrophic (increase it).

I have yet to see the need to use one to treat the other (to enhance or protect immune function), but it sure sounds good, right? Maybe I could make my millions on this.

 

[anabolicmanx19]

Not necessarily! Enlarged liver... does that sound good?

AAS are thymolytic (reduce size of the thymus). Phytoecdysteroids (e.g., ecdysterone, turkesterone) are thymotrophic (increase it).

I have yet to see the need to use one to treat the other (to enhance or protect immune function), but it sure sounds good, right? Maybe I could make my millions on this.

yeah man , but i mean when the drug is taken and there is a change in organ weight , so there is alteration in that organ , not speaking here about that change was positive or negative

 

[Type-IIx]

@anabolicmanx19 I am going to suspend judgment on the relevance of this data to man until @PeterBond asserts himself here to tell us what kind of dosages of trenbolone & nandrolone (the only AAS that significantly increased these markers of apoptosis, caspaces 3/7) cross the blood-brain barrier to yield 100 μM trenbolone or nandrolone in CSF or cortical cells.

If even he cannot, then these are probably not valid models for human use.

 

[Millard]

I've written about how nandrolone, but not testosterone, increases dopamine metabolism (i.e., net breakdown) here:

Anabolic-androgenic steroid effects on libido (Part 1: Men) - MESO-Rx

Men are simple, testosterone clearly governs sexual function and libido (with some influence from aromatization to estradiol, particularly in CNS and brain).

thinksteroids.com

Basically, androgens reduce spatial but not verbal/logical intelligence. Nandrolone decreases motivation & hinders learning (by its effects on dopamine that are probably modulated by a reduced dopamine receptor #).

I've never been a fan of Deca. But not because of any of the dubious claims of its relative danger in OP's post.

Most AAS have left me in a positive psychological state - some, like Dianabol, make me absolutely positively HAPPY.

But I never felt good on Deca - even sad at times.

My experience is at odds with most. I just dismissed it as an isolated n of 1 situation without an explanation.

 

[Millard]

Meso is a harm reduction forum. You believe that the compound that you deem most harmful should be banned from being discussed?

I think some people actually believe prohibition IS harm reduction. They adopt the approach that society must prohibit the use of the drugs and even prohibit the discussion of these drugs.

The reality of the situation is that we are not going to stop people from taking risks involving AAS. The best we can do is provide them with the most accurate information about the risk/reward profiles of these drugs. And when people inevitably decide to assume these risks, we can help them minimize and manage the associated harm.

 

[Iamnatty]

Never tried clen. My anecdote dealt with AFIB episode. I'd have to go back and look at our PM to see if I somehow I have you the impression it had was due to clen.

edit: going back I can see how my comments confused the situation. My point was baseline screen either ekg for arrythmia before playing with clen

Glad your the majority of your clients have found no issues with nandrolone. Not my experience or experience of many people I have encountered . Would be interesting to see the descriptive stats on dose per week, time on, etc.

What’s your experience or others you have encountered with Deca ?

 

[BigTomJ]

Understood. The anecdote on afib was in the interest of harm reduction. Screening clients for congenital heart abnormality/arrythmia/blocks before running clen. Small number but high severity as you state.

Today I saw the reference to Duchaine by Millard and shared the article. From there you made a veiled reference to what appeared to be GHB. That immediately made me think of the book chapter on GHB research fiasco. Biden is a common thread to all of this (AAS, GHB, etc) as he played a major role in 1990 and 2000s legislation in US.

Correct that these had nothing to do with cartels.

TBF, Carrot Top had nothing to do with thread topic either LOL.

Thanks. I really appreciate your work. Will try to stay on topic better. Too much reading.

Lmao this is a classic example of ADD my man

 

[OldGHGuy]

Hello everyone
i spent last month reading a lot of studies about harmful effect of anabolic steroids in body organs , especially with these that related to the brain
because that the one thing that you can't really monitor especially in the long term

so i discovered some interesting things and almost none of them is known ( some are based on new studies and some are based on old studies ) and some are good news and some are bad news

first of all , none of these claims are bro science or personal opinion , all are the information here are based on objective studies

1 - Here is A big study published in 2022 compare between the famous 4 anabolic steroids ( stanzolol,tren,deca,test) , and their effect on the brain and body organs

Anabolic Androgenic Steroids: Neurobiological Effects of Nandrolone, Testosterone, Trenbolone, and Stanozolol

so what was the worst one for body organs, for the brain ? its was Deca
here from the abstract of the study , then will go into details :

In addition, nandrolone decanoate caused a reduced general activity, an effect possibly induced by increased stress vulnerability and alterations in the oxytocinergic system. Furthermore, nandrolone decanoate induced impaired memory in the novel object recognition test. Overall, nandrolone decanoate was identified as the most harmful steroid investigated due to its prominent impact on body weight development, affecting multiple organs, and being the only AAS causing impaired cognitive function.

and here are the details and the most important things from the full study ( you have to download it to see the full study )

First thing about body organs and comparing between test,deca,tren and their harmful effect on internal organs Liver,Thymus,Kidney,Testis


View attachment 273513

As you see the worst for Kidney and liver was Deca

highest increasing of the weight of the kidney was caused by nandrolone decanoate then was tren (which indicate renal toxicant)

also deca was the worst on the liver because it reduced the weight of the liver (which indicate liver damage ) although hepatic alterations are primarily associated with 17a-alkylated aas

so what about the brain cells, and brain function ? which one is the worst ?

Deca also was the worst for brain cells , and brain function

tren actually in this study not impaired cognitive function at all , even this amazed the researchers

The results obtained are in line with previous published findings, where nandrolone decanoate has been described to impair memory in other types of memory tests. For example, both spatial memory function in the Morris water maze task (Magnusson et al., 2009, Pieretti et al., 2013, Tanehkar et al., 2013), as well as olfactory social memory (Kouvelas et al., 2008) are reported to be altered following nandrolone decanoate treatment. Testosterone, on the other hand, has previously been described not to affect memory (Clark et al., 1995, Wood and Serpa, 2020), which also is in accordance with the results from paper IV. Surprisingly, trenbolone decanoate did not induce an impairment in the NOR-test. Trenbolone display several pharmacological similarities with nandrolone decanoate, including the ability to cause neurodegeneration (Ma and Liu, 2015). Furthermore, trenbolone has been described by AAS-users to cause particular harm (Scarth and Bjørnebekk, 2021). In our studies, trenbolone however did not have an impact on cognitive function.

so what about the brain cells ? also deca was the worst , this based in 2019 study that also the previous study quoted it

the study was comparing the effect of stan,test,deca,tren and their effect on neuronal cortical cell (neurons)

Toxic Impact of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids in Primary Rat Cortical Cell Cultures​

And here the conclusion of the study : With respect to the parameters assessed, nandrolone appeared to be the most toxic AAS, while testosterone, stanozolol, and trenbolone disposed similar effects but to a lesser extent. According to the present results, the order of the examined AASs regarding their toxicity was found to be nandrolone > trenbolone > testosterone > stanozolol.

So the big question here what about the amyloid plaque study with tren ? what about it ?

first of all

how many of you guys know that supraphysiologic doses of testosterone also increase Aβ levels ? Source

also dianabol and deca increase neuronal susceptibility to the apoptotic stimulus provided by Aβ Source ( which is worse than accumulation of the plaque )

and regardless of other neurotoxic effects of alcohol and smoking on the cns

smoking also accumulate amyloid plaques (Aβ42,Aβ40) in the hippocampus and cortex in the brain of humans and animals )

ٍSources :

1,2,3,4,5

even moderate amount of alcohol also accumulate amyloid plaques in the brain 1,2


never seen anyone before cites these studies like we see with tren amyloid study (regardless it was a single study with poor methodology )

the most important thing now ? is amyloid plaque cause alzheimer's ? in the peds community there is a few people know amyloid hypothesis "amyloid cause alzheimer's " debunked and falsified in a lot of studies , the whole amyloid hypothesis was scandal Source , even the drugs that targets the plaques has failed to show any cognitive benefits even it worsen the patients 1,2,https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/roche-shutters-most-trials-alzheimers-drug-after-failed-trials-2022-12-01/ (3) , and the frequent presence of amyloid plaques in the brains of cognitively healthy older people even without a single neurological problem 1,2,3 .

also the hypothesis has been completely falsified in the recent studies
1,2,3,4,5,6

so its clear now that there is no causation between amyloid plaques and alzheimer's ,

only poor correlation that explains a very little to us so far

also one last thing there is 2022 study linked supraphysiological doses of deca and test to cause neuronal degeneration in locus coeruleus ( the main noradrenergic nucleus of the brain ) and the degeneration of neurons in the locus coeruleus has been postulated as a contributor to the development of neurodegenerative diseases such as alzheimer's disease and parkinson's disease Source

no one is talking about this study , and this study is worse than the tren fake hypothesis study , but because its not about demonizing tren
so no one will care

professional bodybuilders uses tons of peds throughout their lives ( including tren and what more alot worse than tren ) none of them developed dementia and alot of them in their 60s and 70s now

so be aware of the demonizing propaganda that targeting peds

sorry for my weird english , not my primary language

stay safe guys

​

​

Published by the top Stanozolol supplier in Sweden. JK

This is all good info. Not sure why anyone would use Deca anymore, even for the temporary joint benefits.

 

[readalot]

Lmao this is a classic example of ADD my man

I tend to think of it the opposite way....MAD

Massive Attention to Detail

However, I can see where you would conclude that based on the information available here.

 

[readalot]

What’s your experience or others you have encountered with Deca ?

Anhedonia, major bad combo of increased libido with ED, severe depression. Ran it twice 20 weeks and 19 weeks. I probably have just known all the outliers though. Hard to make any hard conclusions on incidence rate at the population level given the data available. Age, dose, duration, preexisting conditions, etc.

My very scholarly conclusion is AAS make you real dumb in the short term and anti social of course. Glad I never used them during school years. Young people stay away.

 

[warlockandrogen]

Yeah maybe these pros use lots of these toxic steroids

but i guess they also use LOADS of HGH and studies show its a decent neuroprotective hormone besides many other things.

---

"Study says that human growth hormone may restore memory and attention deficits caused by heroin abuse."

---

"GH administration has been extensively linked with both protection and repair of the brain following damage or disease"


gh15 approved

 

[readalot]

gh15 approved

In the end that's all that matters haha.

 

[readalot]

Speaking of rodent data, HEDs, AAS....

If you want some fun over the holidays keep it simple and take some time to try and make sense of the sum total (ok alot of it) available literature data on testosterone; attempt to draw conclusions on any hard and fast limits for cumulative dose vs toxicity. You really have to read the last half of the thread in details for reference papers and how an envelope of chronic toxicity could be developed. Still very murky and long term data points are all anecdotal.

Did not get a lot of feedback at ExcelMale so perhaps there are folks interested here?

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

Of course that's taking some liberties (cherry picking the blue and red data points but FWIW. Ok, update to post #93 above. I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this paper. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Petarosus188]

Well we had two people yesterday saying it was safe and the best weight loss supplement, so if that’s harm reduction then yes it should be banned from discussion

Because 1) it’s not safe 2) it’s not the best weight loss supplement

Whats the best FAT loss supplement then? Something forcing body to use fat for energy not muscle or glucosis...?

 

[Petarosus188]

yes you are right
but i don't understand why anyone will choose to use this poison ?
you can even just do diet without cardio and this will burn the fat
why do I put myself into a danger like this to just shred some fat ?

Because technically it will be effective even at 100mgs per day...and as far as I know....no other fat burner trully forces body to use fat and not glucosis (also made from muscle breakdown). Everything else just makes body use more energy or supresses hunger.

 

[Type-IIx]

Speaking of rodent data, HEDs, AAS....

If you want some fun over the holidays keep it simple and take some time to try and make sense of the sum total (ok alot of it) available literature data on testosterone; attempt to draw conclusions on any hard and fast limits for cumulative dose vs toxicity. You really have to read the last half of the thread in details for reference papers and how an envelope of chronic toxicity could be developed. Still very murky and long term data points are all anecdotal.

Did not get a lot of feedback at ExcelMale so perhaps there are folks interested here?

TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

Of course that's taking some liberties (cherry picking the blue and red data points but FWIW. Ok, update to post #93 above. I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this paper. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93...

www.excelmale.com

View attachment 273534

Did you draw up this figure yourself? Is this a sort of independent/informal meta-analysis? Where is this coming from? It looks nice, but, methods?

P.S. I am totally unwilling to make the trek over to ExcelMale. If you are motivated to carry this data over to a thread here, please do.

 

[readalot]

Did you draw up this figure yourself? Is this a sort of independent/informal meta-analysis? Where is this coming from? It looks nice, but, methods?

My work. Yes see the thread referenced where I lay out the methods.

Thread posts lay out the evolution. Thanks.