HCG Desensitized my Leydig Cells

[Go-G]

Hey, Guys:

Looking for suggestions: After last cycle one year and a half ago, my LH and FSH levels never recovered to normal range. They are at 13 and 18 respectively still - a year later.

Testosterone is in my normal range - approx 700

Last cycle was Test E 10 weeks with Dbol kicker and Winny end.

I used 250 ius of HCG 2x weekly for the last 6 weeks of the cycle. Then followed with a PCT plan of Clomid and Nolva combined. Test recovered quickly.

The LH and FSH levels are actually a couple points higher now than one year ago, so it's getting worse. Bloods tested frequently: pre, mid, and end of cycle, end of PCT, and two months after PCT where I found the high LH and FSH levels.

Just tested again last week, and they're still higher, as stated above.

Looks like I blew out the Leydig cells, either by desensitizing or cell death. Any suggestions for correction?

What about some short cycles to suppress natural t? Drop LH and FSH to nothing for a couple weeks, and then recover?

 

[Sworder]

Your test is 700, what is the problem?

 

[brutus79]

Your test is 700, what is the problem?

The problem seems to be he has no idea what he is talking about.

 

[Sworder]

The problem seems to be he has no idea what he is talking about.

Well, that has become our problem...

 

[Go-G]

Understood, the test is fine. But what happens is that with the consistently high LH and FSH, the leydig cells get more and more desensitized, and they die, and then eventually you do stop producing natural test.

 

[Go-G]

The problem seems to be he has no idea what he is talking about.

Yeah, not NO idea, but I do appreciate the input from you guys who know a LOT.

 

[Sworder]

Yeah, not NO idea, but I do appreciate the input from you guys who know a LOT.

Desensitization from hCG is from when it was prescribed in the early days in the 5k iU ampules. Those were taken in a single dose and after a while some weren't responding to the hCG as well anymore. This is not a problem that you are facing from my understanding. Your protocol for your PCT sounded great and honestly your testosterone levels show that your pct was good too imo.


Early hCG-induced desensitization in Leydig cells
Early hCG-induced desensitization in Leydig cells - ScienceDirect
Abstract
The early mechanism of hCG induced down regulation of its own receptor as well as steroidogenesis refractoriness of rat Leydig cells to gonadotropin stimulation have been investigated. A single injection of 5, 12, 25, 50 and 100 IU of hCG in rats induced within 8 hours, Leydig cells desensitization. However, apparent receptor loss was significantly lower only in the rats who received 50 and 100 IU of hCG. Cycloheximide inhibits hCG-induced receptors loss but had no effect on hCG-induced desensitization. The most likely explanation for desensitization in the presence of binding sites and a normal adenylate cyclase, is a defective coupling between the receptor sites and the catalytic subunit.

 

[Go-G]

Desensitization from hCG is from when it was prescribed in the early days in the 5k iU ampules. Those were taken in a single dose and after a while some weren't responding to the hCG as well anymore. This is not a problem that you are facing from my understanding. Your protocol for your PCT sounded great and honestly your testosterone levels show that your pct was good too imo.


Early hCG-induced desensitization in Leydig cells
Early hCG-induced desensitization in Leydig cells - ScienceDirect
Abstract
The early mechanism of hCG induced down regulation of its own receptor as well as steroidogenesis refractoriness of rat Leydig cells to gonadotropin stimulation have been investigated. A single injection of 5, 12, 25, 50 and 100 IU of hCG in rats induced within 8 hours, Leydig cells desensitization. However, apparent receptor loss was significantly lower only in the rats who received 50 and 100 IU of hCG. Cycloheximide inhibits hCG-induced receptors loss but had no effect on hCG-induced desensitization. The most likely explanation for desensitization in the presence of binding sites and a normal adenylate cyclase, is a defective coupling between the receptor sites and the catalytic subunit.

Okay, thanks for that info. I also thought I needed higher doses of hCG before they were dangerous.
Have you every seen a result like this? I'm sure it's a result of the last cycle, because LH and FSH were normal on all tests before that, and have not budged from these really high numbers in year, and are actually getting worse.

 

[Sworder]

Have you every seen a result like this?

Result like what? Post labs

 

[Go-G]

Here's the actual #'s:

Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 14.1 HIGH 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL 01

FSH, Serum
FSH 18.4 HIGH 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL 01

Been like this for a year, getting slightly worse, test steady 650-730 ish.

 

[Sworder]

Here's the actual #'s:

Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 14.1 HIGH 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL 01

FSH, Serum
FSH 18.4 HIGH 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL 01

That's good, I wouldn't be worried about having too much LH/FSH. You are fine, it's good that you are coming on the boards asking questions.

 

[Sworder]

Labs. Estadiol was alone on second page - 23.8

I can see through the blue tape, you might want to delete that.

 

[Sworder]

Here's the actual #'s:

Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 14.1 HIGH 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL 01

FSH, Serum
FSH 18.4 HIGH 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL 01

Been like this for a year, getting slightly worse, test steady 650-730 ish.

Again, your full labs look great!

 

[Go-G]

Labs. Estradiol was alone on second page: 23.8

 

[Go-G]

I can see through the blue tape, you might want to delete that.

Thanks, saw that too, deleted and reposted.

 

[Go-G]

Again, your full labs look great!

Okay, good to hear - but why are you not concerned about those LH and FSH values being so far off the charts?

 

[Go-G]

Again, your full labs look great!

Also, thank you sincerely for taking the time for this question.

 

[Sworder]

Okay, good to hear - but why are you not concerned about those LH and FSH values being so far off the charts?

It's probably because of the SERMs that your levels are elevated and if not it's not abnormal for your hormones to take a while to balance again. As long as your T level is high, which it is esp for your age and you don't have any negative symptoms. Do you have any negative symptoms to report?

 

[Go-G]

No negative symptoms. A year and a half is a long time to rebalance, especially with the numbers headed in the wrong direction. It's the balance that I thought I tip at this point by briefly suppressing natural t, letting the lh and fsh fall to nothing, and in that way maybe resetting the sensitivity level of the receptors to work with a normal level of lh/fsh.

 

[Sworder]

No negative symptoms. A year and a half is a long time to rebalance, especially with the numbers headed in the wrong direction. It's the balance that I thought I tip at this point by briefly suppressing natural t, letting the lh and fsh fall to nothing, and in that way maybe resetting the sensitivity level of the receptors to work with a normal level of lh/fsh.

No negative symptoms? Then no problem

If you had desensitized your leydigs cells your levels wouldn't be north of 700. I can't keep responding to you anymore bud. Have a good day