Help With Rollercoaster Please

mmm

New Member
I'm 51 yrs old and currently on HRT, taking 100mg cyp once a week on sundays, along with 250mcg hcg on fri. and sat. I also take 1 1/2 grains of nature-thriod daily

the worst days of the week for me are sundays and mondays, where i feel absolutely no energy and want to collapse. Other days usually ok and libido a lot better. I just cant understand the debilitating fatigue on some days.

Do you think I should split the dose to 2x/wk or maybe its still a thyroid issue? My body temp. upon waking averages 96.5 and goes up during the day to an avg. of 97.2.


Test 250 pre hrt, now near 1000
Free t-3 upper third of range
Free t-4 middle of range
TSH 1.40

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
 
I'm 51 yrs old and currently on HRT, taking 100mg cyp once a week on sundays, along with 250mcg hcg on fri. and sat. I also take 1 1/2 grains of nature-thriod daily

the worst days of the week for me are sundays and mondays, where i feel absolutely no energy and want to collapse. Other days usually ok and libido a lot better. I just cant understand the debilitating fatigue on some days.

Do you think I should split the dose to 2x/wk or maybe its still a thyroid issue? My body temp. upon waking averages 96.5 and goes up during the day to an avg. of 97.2.


Test 250 pre hrt, now near 1000
Free t-3 upper third of range
Free t-4 middle of range
TSH 1.40

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

Hey I was on this exact protocol except for the thyroid med. I too was crashing toward the end so I just changed it up and now second week in at taking my T shots 60mg 2x's/week(Sun morning & Wed evening) w/ adex @ .5mg 2x's/week along with the hcg on Tues. & Fridays now. To be honest since changing to this protocol I have been feeling tired, I assume its because my levels need time to adjust.
 
Do you have any other medical concerns?

I do not like the "natural" thyroid products, but seeing as your TSH is perfect I do not think this is a problem.

The depo-testosterone dose of 100 mg/week is not typically adequate to sustain good (>500 ng/dL) throughout the week. So, I am a bit surprised by the 1000 ng/dL level. When did you obtain this level with respect to your weekly injection?

As you might know, cypionate (as well as enanthate) usually peak 24-72 hours after injection. Since you inject on Sunday, it would be reasonable that the lowest level will be this day. You can figure the rest!

In my opinion, the hCG administration two days in a row is nonsense. Also, the dose is homeopathic (worthless). Care to provide support for this dosing?
 
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AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO


In my paper My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men, published in A4Ms 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCGa Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analogwill effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now lets delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly cycle compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right timewithout inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But theres another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They neednt concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems doeven when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more traditional TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.








Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and All Things Male - Center for Men's Health clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.














Do you have any other medical concerns?

I do not like the "natural" thyroid products, but seeing as your TSH is perfect I do not think this is a problem.

The depo-testosterone dose of 100 mg/week is not typically adequate to sustain good (>500 ng/dL) throughout the week. So, I am a bit surprised by the 1000 ng/dL level. When did you obtain this level with respect to your weekly injection?

As you might know, cypionate (as well as enanthate) usually peak 48-72 hours after injection. Since you inject on Sunday, it would be reasonable that the lowest level will be this day. You can figure the rest!

In my opinion, the hCG administration two days in a row is nonsense. Also, the dose is homeopathic (worthless). Care to provide support for this dosing?
 
I dont have a medical concern other than my symptoms of cold extremities and low body temp.

I can live with those but my intermittent weakness and tiredness are what I"m most concerned with.

I was told by my doc that 250 mg hcg on the2 days prior to test inj. was the way to go, to keep the boys up.

My labs were done on thurs following sunday inj.

Thanks again in advance for anyone's help!
 
I ha e seen and read the following. In my opinion, it is a waste of the paper it is written on! Also, I have commented on this "protocol" on Meso. If you abide by this, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

See: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134241582

For example, there is absolutely no support for the following statement. I challenge anyone to find support.

"It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition."



AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO


In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.








Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and All Things Male - Center for Men's Health clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.
 
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So what about his paper do you disagree with other than that 1 statement in his literature?

I have used HCG in the past and I had strong reaction to it even at doses as low as 100IUs per day.


I ha e seen and read the following. In my opinion, it is a waste of the paper it is written on! Also, I have commented on this "protocol" on Meso. If you abide by this, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

See: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134241582

For example, there is absolutely no support for the following statement. I challenge anyone to find support.

"It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition."
 
I would switch the injection to Monday. Obtain the T level on Monday prior to doing the injection. This is to rule out the T as the possible cause. As far as the hCG, please read the prior post.


I dont have a medical concern other than my symptoms of cold extremities and low body temp.

I can live with those but my intermittent weakness and tiredness are what I"m most concerned with.

I was told by my doc that 250 mg hcg on the2 days prior to test inj. was the way to go, to keep the boys up.

My labs were done on thurs following sunday inj.

Thanks again in advance for anyone's help!
 
Oh, and BTW. I look forward to listenig to you tommorrow at your lecture. I will definitely be there.

I would switch the injection to Monday. Obtain the T level on Monday prior to doing the injection. This is to rule out the T as the possible cause. As far as the hCG, please read the prior post.
 
Thank you very much for your participation at the lecture. Please introduce yourself so I can give you a free copy of the recently published book! Anyway,

I was unable to find the specific article on testosterone cypionate PK/PD, but I did locate the following article below. It is available for html viewing, Pharmacokinetics, Efficacy, and Safety of a Permeation-Enhanced Testosterone Transdermal System in Comparison with Bi-Weekly Injections of Testosterone Enanthate for the Treatment of Hypogonadal Men -- Dobs et al. 84 (10): 3469 -- Journal of Clinical , as well as a pdf download. The pdf download is included in the post. Note: the article uses 200 mg while your using 100 mg.

From the article, Mean serum concentrations for T, BT, DHT, and E2 increased sharply after IM injection to levels at or above the upper limit of normal. These values then decreased gradually into the normal range over the 14-day dosing interval (right panels of Fig. 1 ). Pharmacokinetic analysis of the IM injection profiles (Table 2) showed that peak serum T concentrations averaged 1462 408 ng/dL and occurred 2.3 1.9 days after injection. The mean trough concentration was 330 ng/dL, and the time-average concentration over the 14-day interval was 815 167 ng/dL.


Dobs AS, Meikle AW, Arver S, Sanders SW, Caramelli KE, Mazer NA. Pharmacokinetics, Efficacy, and Safety of a Permeation-Enhanced Testosterone Transdermal System in Comparison with Bi-Weekly Injections of Testosterone Enanthate for the Treatment of Hypogonadal Men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999;84(10):3469-78.

The pharmacokinetics, efficacy, and safety of the Androderm testosterone (T) transdermal system (TTD) and intramuscular T enanthate injections (IM) for the treatment of male hypogonadism were compared in a 24-week multicenter, randomized, parallel-group study. Sixty-six adult hypogonadal men (22-65 years of age) were withdrawn from prior IM treatment for 4-6 weeks and then randomly assigned to treatment with TTD (two 2.5-mg systems applied nightly) or IM (200 mg injected every 2 weeks); there were 33 patients per group. Twenty-six patients in the TTD group and 32 in the IM group completed the study. TTD treatment produced circadian variations in the levels of total T, bioavailable T, dihydrotestosterone, and estradiol within the normal physiological ranges. IM treatment produced supraphysiological levels of T, bioavailable T, and estradiol (but not dihydrotestosterone) for several days after each injection. Mean morning sex hormone levels were within the normal range in greater proportions of TTD patients (range, 77-100%) than IM patients (range, 19-84%). Both treatments normalized LH levels in approximately 50% of patients with primary hypogonadism; however, LH levels were suppressed to the subnormal range in 31% of IM patients vs. 0% of TTD patients. Both treatments maintained sexual function (assessed by questionnaire and Rigiscan) and mood (Beck Depression Inventory) at the prior treatment levels. Prostate-specific antigen levels, prostate volumes, and lipid and serum chemistry parameters were comparable in both treatment groups. Transient skin irritation from the patches was reported by 60% of the TTD patients, but caused only three patients (9%) to discontinue treatment. IM treatment produced local reactions in 33% of patients and was associated with significantly more abnormal hematocrit elevations (43.8% of patients) compared with TTD treatment (15.4% of patients). Gynecomastia resolved more frequently during TTD treatment (4 of 10 patients) than with IM treatment (1 of 9 patients). Although both treatments seem to be efficacious for replacing T in hypogonadal men, the more physiological sex hormone levels and profiles associated with TTD may offer possible advantages over IM in minimizing excessive stimulation of erythropoiesis, preventing/ameliorating gynecomastia, and not over-suppressing gonadotropins.
 

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Dr Scally and others, what do you suggest for my protocol regarding my test and hcg administration?

Do you put much credence into body temperature being so low (with thyroid numbers seemingly close to optimal) being the cause of my fatigue and malaise issues?

Thanks
 

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