HRT patient, my therapy went HAYWIRE! (UPDATE!)

[rjrjclub]

I am a 53 year old male who just finished a 22 week program of HRT therapy fom a anti-aging clinic I found on the internet.. My given protocol was as follows:

* 220 mg. testosterone cypionate IM once a week
* 1 mg of anastrozole twice a week
* 500 IU of HCG. twice a week

The protocol was based on the following Lab test results:

Testosterone: 325 nl/dl Normal: 241 - 827
Free Testosterone: 8.3 pg/ml Normal: 7.2 - 24.0
SHBG: 48 nmol/L Normal: 14.50 - 48.4
Estradiol: 26 pg/ml Normal :7.6-42
FSH: 2.7 mIU Normal: 1.4 -18
LH: 2.8 mIU Normal: 1.5 - 9.3
IGF-1: 59 ng/ml Normal: 87 - 238 Flagged: very low
TSH: 2.0 uIU/mL Normal: 0.45 - 4.5
T4:6.3 ug/dL. Normal:4.5-12.0
T3 Uptake:35% Normal:24-39
Free thyroxine Index: 2.2 Normal: 1.2-4.9
Triiodothyronine,Free, serum: 2.4 Normal: 2.3-4.2
Blood platelets:144 x10E3/uL. Normal: 140-415
eGFR: 58 Normal: >59
creatinine,Serum: 1.29 Normal:.076-1.27


Everything was going great. felt better, daily headaches went away, energy level soared, and my libido improved, my workouts improved. One NEGATIVE: my testicles stared shrinking and my nipples got tender

Had my blood work checked after 22 weeks(by my insistence). My anti-aging clinic usually does one after 6 months. I had just started the next 20 week phase. They had upped me to 330 mg. of testosterone cypionate(before the blood test that I had ordered). The results of the 2nd blood test were as follows. These are NOT missprints:

Testosterone: 4839 nl/dl Normal: 241 - 827 (LabCorp did a dilution test to confirm results)
Free Testosterone: > 49 pg/ml Normal: 7.2 - 24.0 Flagged: high
SHBG: 51.9 nmol/L Normal: 14.50 - 48.4 Flagged: high
Estradiol: 85.3 pg/ml Normal: 7.6-42 Flagged; high
FSH: 0.3 mIU Normal: 1.4 -18 Flagged; low
LH: <0.2 mIU Normal: 1.5 - 9.3 Flagged: low
IGF-1: 79 ng/ml Normal: 87 - 238 Flagged: low
TSH: 1.92 uIU/mL Normal: 0.45 - 4.5
T4:6.1 ug/dL Normal:4.5-12.0
T3: Uptake:33% Normal:24-39
Free thyroxine Index: 2.0 Normal: 1.2-4.9
Triiodothyronine,Free, serum: 3.1 Normal: 2.3-4.2
Blood platelets:157 x10E3/uL Normal: 140-415
eGFR: 58 Normal: >59
creatinine,Serum: 1.29 Normal:.076-1.27



My consultant at the internet site clinic (with real actual clinic in Florida) called
with the results and were astounded and concerned. They had never seen a testosterone level that high before for men on their HRT program. Apparently Labcorp hadn't either and re-ran a 2nd blood sample to make sure.

My new protocol they gave to me is:

* 100 mg of testosterone cypionate per week IM

* 3000 IU of HCG per week (500IU x 6 days)

* 1 mg of anastrozole x 3 times per week for 4 weeks(3.0mg. total)

* 10 mg of tamoxiphen x 3 times per weeks for 4 weeks(30.0 mg.total)

* 50 mg stanolozol troche 3 time a week starting Feb 7th , 2010
for 4 weeks.

After reading some of the various threads on this site I am more confused than ever. I stopped taking the testosterone 4 weeks ago to try to get the levels down. I am taking 1200-1500 IU of HCG per week(no more than 500IU per injection). I am taking the anastrozole and the tamoxiphen as instructed. my sore nipples have gone away. I was going to resume the testosterone Feb 7, 2010 at the 100 mg IM per week.

I had a blood test on Feb 4th, 2010. Here are the new results:

Testosterone: 1001 nl/dl Normal: 241 - 827 Flagged: high for a 53 yr old
Free Testosterone: > 19.5 pg/ml Normal: 7.2 - 24.0
SHBG: 68.2 nmol/L Normal: 14.50 - 48.4 Flagged; high
Estradiol: 70.9 pg/ml Normal: 7.6-42 Flagged: high
FSH: 0.3 mIU Normal: 1.4 -18 Flagged: low
LH: <0.2 mIU Normal: 1.5 - 9.3 Flagged: low
IGF-1: 118 ng/ml Normal: 87 - 238
TSH: 2.78uIU/mL Normal: 0.45 - 4.5
T4:5.6 ug/dL Normal:4.5-12.0
T3: Uptake:36% Normal:24-39
Free thyroxine Index: 2.0 Normal: 1.2-4.9
Triiodothyronine,Free, serum: 3.5 Normal: 2.3-4.2
Blood platelets:132 x10E3/uL. Normal: 140-415 Flagged; low
eGFR: 58 Normal: >59
Creatinine,Serum: 1.29 Normal:.076-1.27
Prolactin: 8.2 ng/mL. Normal; 4.0-15.2
cortisol: 13.6 ug/dL. normal: 4.0-15.2
Progesterone: 0.3 ng.dL. Normal:0.2-1.4
DHEA: 375 ng/dL. Normal: 131-538

NOTE: all blood test have been done in morning after fasting 10+ hours

I would like my testosterone level to be around 800-1000 level. How do I get my SHBG down? Should SHBG be going up after 4 weeks off the testosterone cypionate? My joints have been very sore the past 2-1/2 weeks. I have to drop down my weights in order to get a good workout(because of the joint soreness). I have had a neck ache also for the past 2 weeks. Is that from low progesterone? I read that progesterone reading of 0.2-0.3 is considered low if test was done in morning as progesterone levels fall during the day for men.
According to my anti-aging clinic I was suppose to start the Winny troche this week to lower the SHBG. I was suppose to take that in conjuction with the testosterone cypionate 100mg/week. I am really concerned about the low LH and FSH levels and starting testosterone cypionate again.
I have been taking the 1200 IU of HCG per week.(3 divided doses)
Do I need to do more HCG to get my testicles humming again? or add clomid?
I've had a very slight dull ache in left testicle for past 2 weeks. Is it coming alive?
Does anybody have good feedback or protocol for me? (Yes, I know one of the Head Moderators have called my anti-aging clinic a bunch of Quacks...Quacks....Quacks. Don't rub it in. HA-HA)

NOTE: I started using CJC-1295 w/DAC along with GHRP-6 about 5 weeks ago because my IGF-1 level was so low at the beginning. I did Semorelin for 10 weeks before that.. My IGF-1 levels has moved to the low normal range.
Sorry this is so long.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I want to be clear I understand the posted results. You are on TRT, correct?

These values (February 4, 2010) are after being OFF testosterone cypionate for FOUR WEEKS, correct?

 

[rjrjclub]

Re; Dr. Michael Scally:

Yes and no. My last testosterone injection was January 4, 2010. I was and still continuing to take anastrozole (1 mg capsule) 3 times per week(that was upped from 2 times per week before the 2nd. blood test on December 31,2009). I was instructed to start taking tamoxifen 10mg pill 3 times per week( because of the sore nipple issue). The tamoxifen was to end on Feb 7th, 2010 (which I did). I was suppose to increase to 3000 IU. of HCG. per week but only took 1200 IU (divided doses) per week. I was concerned about producing more estadiol.

I continue to take 100 mcg.of CJC-1295(w/DAC) and 100 mcg of GHRP-6 5 night per week before bedtime.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Re; Dr. Michael Scally:

Yes and no. My last testosterone injection was January 4, 2010. I was and still continuing to take anastrozole (1 mg capsule) 3 times per week(that was upped from 2 times per week before the 2nd. blood test on December 31,2009). I was instructed to start taking tamoxifen 10mg pill 3 times per week( because of the sore nipple issue). The tamoxifen was to end on Feb 7th, 2010 (which I did). I was suppose to increase to 3000 IU. of HCG. per week but only took 1200 IU (divided doses) per week. I was concerned about producing more estadiol.

I continue to take 100 mcg.of CJC-1295(w/DAC) and 100 mcg of GHRP-6 5 night per week before bedtime.

What was the T dose prior to January? 330 mg/week? How long did you take 330 mg/week before changing? Can you provide a better timeline for T?

 

[rjrjclub]

Re: Dr Michael Scally:

The dosage was 220 mg/ml of the cypionate( Starting Aug 2009 thru Jan. 4th,2010) . I was suppose to start the 330 mg/ml per week on Jan 4th. I took only 220mg/ml. as I had not gotten the results of test until Jan 5th.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Re: Dr Michael Scally:

The dosage was 220 mg/ml of the cypionate( Starting Aug 2009 thru Jan. 4th,2010) . I was suppose to start the 330 mg/ml per week on Jan 4th. I took only 220mg/ml. as I had not gotten the results of test until Jan 5th.

that is basically a steroid cycle and who ever telling you this shit should have their head examine and are practicing bad medicine which can be very dangerous to patiients

Using that much hcg is ludacrious and can result in shutting down your testicles 250 2 times a week of HCG is plenty o keep the boys in check. With proper protocols you would not even need half the shit you are on. They are making you worse off and in process making them selves richer. Its called a huge scam ....

 

[rjrjclub]

re:Hardasnail1973

I have to agree with you. I have learned a lot on this forum in the past month. Unfortunately, I was naive as to what a good HRT protocol is. I figured this clinic knew what they were doing. I realize clinics are businesses and need to make a profit, but definitely not at the expense of their patients.

Now I stuck trying to get advice on how to fix the mess they have done to my system. Hopefully their original protocol hasn't done any long-term damage to my HPTA system.

 

[Crazy Crew]

I'm sure I started with the same "clinic" you reference. I was glad to find them to be able to get the meds I needed but it didn't take long to realize thier protocols were too much for normal treatment. You are like the majority who have problems finding a compitent, careing medical advisor so you will have to study and take the best available advice to treat yourself untill such expert help is found.
IMO your Anastrozole dose is at least double what you need and is the cause of your joint pain.

I could find no reason for stanolozol to be used in HRT. No one else (Doctors) I could find would even consider recommending its use unless you have a wasting disease. It was very expensive and must yeald a healthy profit to the "clinic"

 

[rjrjclub]

Re: Crazy Crew

The stanolozol was $4.75 per pill ( 10 troches total plus $50.00 to FEDEX them). It was prescribed to lower my SHBG. The increase in Anastrozole was to help lower my estradiol. Had I not insisted to have the Blood test taken on 12-31-2009 I would have gone another month but on the even higher testoterone cypionate they had bumped me up to.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Re: Crazy Crew

The stanolozol was $4.75 per pill ( 10 troches total plus $50.00 to FEDEX them). It was prescribed to lower my SHBG. The increase in Anastrozole was to help lower my estradiol. Had I not insisted to have the Blood test taken on 12-31-2009 I would have gone another month but on the even higher testoterone cypionate they had bumped me up to.

Sounds like something "sprectrum" would do.
They took you to the cleaner and also your health to the shitter.
Protocol used with patieents
are 50 mgs BIW , 250 ius hcg taken day before the shot then blood work in 6 weeks no adex added.
Actually found numberous males e2 regulate as t goes up
I'd also be concerned of adrenal and thyroid fuinction as well could have been altered on that high of a dosage of testosterone. Pm me for good referrals

 

[rjrjclub]

I,ve been researching for a solution to get my testicles working again (LH and FSH test results show little or no activity for at least 5 weeks). I found 2 sites(one on this forum) that had a regimen that Dr. MC Scally and colleagues did research on. It is as follows:

HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.

Would it be too late to start this regimen at this stage of being off "T"? My last "T" shot was over 1 month ago. I have been taking Tamoxifen , HCG, and anastrozole for the past month. (tamoxifen 10mg x 3days per week; anastrozole 1 mg x 3days per week, and HCG 400IU x 3 days per week).

I would like to get my LH and FSH and SHBG and Estradiol back to normal. I want to go back on a TRT regimen similar to the one posted by:Hardasnails1973 .it is similar to the one Dr John Crisler has on his web-site.

I was also concerned that my platelet levels dropped into the "low" category. I curious to know if it was result of taking the tamoxifen. Any cause for concern?

I also read an article that progesterone is made by the testicles. Since my activity down "there" is almost nonexistant; I,m wondering if i should be taking some progesterone in very small dosages until the testicles start working again?

 

[hardasnails1973]

I,ve been researching for a solution to get my testicles working again (LH and FSH test results show little or no activity for at least 5 weeks). I found 2 sites(one on this forum) that had a regimen that Dr. MC Scally and colleagues did research on. It is as follows:

HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.

Would it be too late to start this regimen at this stage of being off "T"? My last "T" shot was over 1 month ago. I have been taking Tamoxifen , HCG, and anastrozole for the past month. (tamoxifen 10mg x 3days per week; anastrozole 1 mg x 3days per week, and HCG 400IU x 3 days per week).

I would like to get my LH and FSH and SHBG and Estradiol back to normal. I want to go back on a TRT regimen similar to the one posted by:Hardasnails1973 .it is similar to the one Dr John Crisler has on his web-site.

I was also concerned that my platelet levels dropped into the "low" category. I curious to know if it was result of taking the tamoxifen. Any cause for concern?

I also read an article that progesterone is made by the testicles. Since my activity down "there" is almost nonexistant; I,m wondering if i should be taking some progesterone in very small dosages until the testicles start working again?

Low thyroid and b-12 deficeincy or adrenal imbalance

 

[rjrjclub]

re hardasnails1973

Are you refering to the low platelet levels?

Also, the only nutrional supplements I added in the month of January 2010 was
*avena sativa
*nettle root extract
Those two were suppose to help with the SHBG. By the last blood test results they did not do a thing.

* Coq 10 supplements 100mg x 2 times per day.
*milk thistle (for the liver)

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I,ve been researching for a solution to get my testicles working again (LH and FSH test results show little or no activity for at least 5 weeks). I found 2 sites(one on this forum) that had a regimen that Dr. MC Scally and colleagues did research on. It is as follows:

HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.

Would it be too late to start this regimen at this stage of being off "T"? My last "T" shot was over 1 month ago. I have been taking Tamoxifen , HCG, and anastrozole for the past month. (tamoxifen 10mg x 3days per week; anastrozole 1 mg x 3days per week, and HCG 400IU x 3 days per week).

I would like to get my LH and FSH and SHBG and Estradiol back to normal. I want to go back on a TRT regimen similar to the one posted by:Hardasnails1973 .it is similar to the one Dr John Crisler has on his web-site.

I was also concerned that my platelet levels dropped into the "low" category. I curious to know if it was result of taking the tamoxifen. Any cause for concern?

I also read an article that progesterone is made by the testicles. Since my activity down "there" is almost nonexistant; I,m wondering if i should be taking some progesterone in very small dosages until the testicles start working again?

I would not depend on these guys for anything. Your HPTA will return to normal (or where you were) within 6 months (plus or minus a few months). I would stop all of the medications - all of them. While I disagree with Crisler's TRT (not major differences), he is much better than these crazies and will take better care of you.

 

[rjrjclub]

RE: Dr Michael Scally:

Are you saying its too late at this stage to do the protocol below? ( I think it one of yours.)


HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.

I called my anti-aging clinic today. I was angry about this whole situation. So I talked to their sales director. He mentioned that they have a similar protocol for situations such as mine. I basically asked them if they have a protocol such as the one above, why the hell did they put me on more "T" and 1/4 of the Nolvadex and no clomid at all. He didn't have an answer for me.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

RE: Dr Michael Scally:

Are you saying its too late at this stage to do the protocol below? ( I think it one of yours.)


HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.

I called my anti-aging clinic today. I was angry about this whole situation. So I talked to their sales director. He mentioned that they have a similar protocol for situations such as mine. I basically asked them if they have a protocol such as the one above, why the hell did they put me on more "T" and 1/4 of the Nolvadex and no clomid at all. He didn't have an answer for me.

That is precisely the protocol taken from my publications. It is important to be monitored through the protocol. The first set of testing must occur prior to finishing the hCG. If you proceed without adequate testes stimulation, the treatment fails. It is not as simple as a cake recipe! Also, your serum T level was ~1000 in early February. This means the HPTA will attempt at the earliest to restore in about ~2 weeks. The protocol needs to be timed with this in mind. And the labs results need to take this into consideration. Since you only took T, I am sure the HPTA will return in time, just be sure to get a good baseline before starting up again (with someone else).

 

[rjrjclub]

RE: Dr Michael Scally:

I appreciate the feed back. I will stop everything and let things return to normal. FYI I'm not a patient of Crisler. I just got his protocol on this forum and his web-site. The majority of advice on this forum was that the original amount of "T" should have been aroung 100mg. , 250 IU of HCG twice a week, and a small amount of AI., and a blood test 4 weeks later; then adjust "T" up or down as needed. When I told the sales director of the anti-aging clinic about what I thought a proper protocol should be, his response was that; "we start most of our HRT patients at the 220 mg of "T" per week. We do a follow up blood test 6 months later. Yours is just an extreme case were you are really sensitive to "T" (unquote).

I did like the benefits of being on HRT such increased energy and better mood, increased libido(Except the last 6 weeks of 2009), my achy joint disappeared, my daily headaches disappeared to once a week, my workouts were the best in 20 years..

 

[Michael Scally MD]

RE: Dr Michael Scally:

I appreciate the feed back. I will stop everything and let things return to normal. When I told the sales director of the anti-aging clinic about what I thought a proper protocol should be, his response was that; "we start most of our HRT patients at the 220 mg of "T" per week. We do a follow up blood test 6 months later. Yours is just an extreme case were you are really sensitive to "T" (unquote).

I did like the benefits of being on HRT such increased energy and better mood, increased libido(Except the last 6 weeks of 2009), my achy joint disappeared, my daily headaches disappeared to once a week, my workouts were the best in 20 years..

This is clear and irrefutable evidence they DO NOT KNOW what they are doing. Further, they are dangerous. They should be reported to the regulatory agency of record.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

It is to be noted that the fall in T level occurred slowly after stopping T, but continuing hCG and arimidex. On December 31, 2009, the Testosterone was 4839 ng/dL. In a little over one month, February 4, 2010, the T level is 1001 ng/dL. At a half-life of 7-10 days, without the other meds, the T level is expected to be about 300-700. The higher T level is due to these other drugs.

 

[rjrjclub]

Re: Dr. Michael Scally:

It is to be noted that the fall in T level occurred slowly after stopping T, but continuing hCG and arimidex. On December 31, 2009, the Testosterone was 4839 ng/dL. In a little over one month, February 4, 2010, the T level is 1001 ng/dL. At a half-life of 7-10 days, without the other meds, the T level is expected to be about 300-700. The higher T level is due to these other drugs

.


By discontinuing the HCG, am I prolonging the start up of my HPTA asevidenced by the lack of LH and FSH?

The anti-aging clinic did call in a prescription for clomid and tamoxifen to my local Walmart Pharmacy. I haven't picked it up. Should I just skip those meds all together?