human cloning

[dolfe1]

Too late, Gary. I'm already the next in line for Supreme Emperor of the World. I even have supporters on the board. LOL

Hey I already have the Bill Gates thing in order, Grizz a bunch of Jessica Simpsons running around this world is just what we need!

 

[Chip Bronson]

The problem is if the clones are conscious...in other words, if it is a being that thinks rationally, experiences emotion, pain, etc, who are we to grow a herd of these things and ultimately submit them to a life of bondage? I guess the question becomes, at what point is a life not a life? A clone may bleed like I do, feel pain like I do, be able to think and act as I do, yet because it is a clone, we can pump his veins full of diseases and let him suffer while we observe the effects? It doesnt sound right.....if the being was nothing more than a bag of tissue that could not think, had no emotions, no pain receptors, essentially a biological robot, then I could see using his carcass for research or slavery or Lord knows what else....but if the being has the traits of humans, then by negating a clone's rights, we are one step closer to negating our own rights.

The problem, as I see it is, what if you woke up one morning and you were stored in a box for 8 hours per day to sleep and then worked 16 hours in some type of task. Then fed, told to strip, hosed off with chemicals to cleanse you, and then placed back in the box for 8 hours.....all the while being conscious of your surroundings and having nothing to look forward to for the rest of your life? If someone is a zombie and neither knows no better nor cares, then perhaps it is a valid existence....but for a man who thinks, it is a living hell...because our entire world has progressed as a result of men thinking.....we have done great things thus far and to reduce a man to nothing more than a mule is the ultimate humiliation regardless of whether he was born of a woman or hatched in beaker.

The real fear that I have is, this issue will become of greater importance within the next 50 years.

hogg, they're just clones. animals feel pain, fear and sadness but yet we exploit them for commercial purposes. if it makes you feel better, we can tinker with the clones' dna to short-circuit, for lack of a better word, their consciousness and all the baggage that entails. i'd rather experiment on clones, 'designed' for that express purpose, than defenseless animals. just my opinion. but i agree there is much to discuss here as this will be a hot topic of great importance over the next few decades.

 

[Grizzly]

Hey, hey, hey, now. The term "defenseless animals" is incorrect. They have plenty of defenses. They have better hearing, smell, footspeed, the ability of flight, etc. All of these are defenses. It just so happens that they got caught. Of course, I would imagine that a large portion of them were bred for the purpose of experimentation, so that negates any defenses when you're born in a cage.

 

[Hogg]

i'm with you on the anti-animal research sentiment Chipper.....quite frankly, I'd rather see a biological carcass of a human with no senses subjected to testing than an animal. We dominate every species on this planet one way or another....its actually quite sickening at times. Yet in the same token, I certainly understand our need for food, to prove medicines etc......but then again, honestly, I'd just assume that our life spans were shorter rather than longer. With each decade comes change and often, the elderly, whose lives have been prolonged by medical science, cannot adapt and end up rotting in a fucking nursing home for 10 years before they finally give up the ghost.

I dunno, it seems like in the past 30 years, we have progressed so far that we are on the verge of wreaking havoc on the future of mankind....but that is a philosophical topic reserved for a later discussion.

In short, as usual seeing eye to eye with each other, I would agree that cloning thoughtless mindless humans is probably viable.

 

[Grizzly]

"but that is a philosophical topic reserved for a later discussion. "

No time like the present, Hogg. Let's get this mother going!

 

[Hogg]

Hey, hey, hey, now. The term "defenseless animals" is incorrect. They have plenty of defenses. They have better hearing, smell, footspeed, the ability of flight, etc. All of these are defenses. It just so happens that they got caught. Of course, I would imagine that a large portion of them were bred for the purpose of experimentation, so that negates any defenses when you're born in a cage.

LOL...a couple of months ago, a 'defenseless' mountain lion killed a cyclist and then grabbed another one off her bike by her helmet.....now that is an extreme case of where the animals fight back but clearly, with habitat pressure and perhaps a lack of food, the animal changed his modus operundi to ensure survival.

The funny thing is, I use to ride at Whiting Ranch every weekend and often at dusk during the summer months. I've witnessed deer crossing the fire road not more than 10 yards from me and I've heard rustling in the bushes. I've also rode at a place called 'the Luge' in the black of night....riding 5 miles per hour up hill while listening to noises all around me in the bushes and in the tall grass. To consider that you are the hunted rather than the hunter is a scary proposition....especially since I cant drag my shotgun along for the ride...so what would I do facing a 120# mountain lion who is staring me down like a Big Mac and fries???? I honestly cant say...but the thought of it is scary. I'm sure I'd try to do something....use the bike as a shield, find a rock....try to nail the fucker in the head....but what if I miss....that 'poor defenseless animal' might get lucky and get one of his 1" long claws around my leg and take a good bite...then what? And so indeed, there is a point where the 'poor defenseless animal' line loses ground....I believe however that it is similar to humans. We are compassionate toward those who are harmless, but if a person is a rapist or murderer, our sentiments change dramatically. The same holds true for animals......put out the word in the community that there is a man-eating mountain lion running the canyons and you can be nearly guaranteed that most who venture in the canyon will pack firearms, whether legal or not, and if someone spots the animal, they will surely attempt to kill it.

I dont know where I was going with this....as you guys may have caught on by now, I tend to explore my thoughts while writing.....oh well.

 

[Hogg]

"but that is a philosophical topic reserved for a later discussion. "

No time like the present, Hogg. Let's get this mother going!

It needs a whole thread of its own my brother.

 

[Bob Smith]

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/20/12889

This study shows what I was referring to earlier. That there are a fairly large number of genetic problems with cloning, including death, deformities, and so on.

 

[Grizzly]

It needs a whole thread of its own my brother.

That's what I was insinuating.

You might want to consider a rifle when facing a lion, Hogg. I don't think birshot is going to do much except piss him off. LOL

 

[Mark Kerr]

I am definitely for human cloning. I do think human clones will be considered individuals and probably will be given the same rights as every citizen.

There are many abnormalities, fatalities, etc. and that cant keep happening. There has to be something done, because that is just an atrocity.

Hopefully, in the future, we will be able to clone an individual and have a body with no brain. Or maybe a functioning brain (anatomically) but lacking an conscious or intelligence. That way we basically have an entire surplus of organs and blood to donate. That also gives us a great group of bodies on which to experiment.

I think people are too paranoid about human cloning. I agree there is the potential for abuse (a slave race, etc.), but the same could have been said about almost any area of science (space race, vaccines, nuclear bombs). I do, however, think the good will far outweigh the bad.

As far as cloning being against God's Will, that is a tough question. There is no real answer and anyone who tries to speak for God's Will makes me suspicious of their true intention.

In conclusion, people should just settle down about cloning. There seems to be a large "fear of change" voice in the world. I, myself, havent heard a really intelligent argument against cloning, as most I have read are "God doesnt like cloning" or something of that nature. Unless one can back their Christian agrument with Scripture, I usually dont put much stock into it.

P.S. I hope I have been clear, as I have had a lot to drink.

 

[Hogg]

P.S. I hope I have been clear, as I have had a lot to drink.

Clear as a bell and a good post as usual counsel. You brought up a good point and that is the surplus organs for transplants.....that would solve a very immense problem and end an ethical issue - who deserves an organ more than another? Clearly, society would be far better served by a plentiful supply of replacement organs.

 

[Hogg]

That's what I was insinuating.

You might want to consider a rifle when facing a lion, Hogg. I don't think birshot is going to do much except piss him off. LOL

Lets do it tomorrow.....I just got off the horn with a family member and I need some time to regroup.

Also, a one ounce slug out of a shotgun barrel has immense power at close range.....I cant cite ballistics off the top of my head but from what I remember, the foot-pound number was huge within 30 yards. Anybody got a remington catalog???

 

[Grizzly]

Damn, you caught the slug thing, eh? That's what I get for trying to make a funny around a smart guy like you. Doh!

I'd bet a slug would take care of the pesky cat. They work wonders on deer, that's for sure.

 

[Bob Smith]

Mark, try this. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2001/1127cloning.asp

 

[Bob Smith]

Clear as a bell and a good post as usual counsel. You brought up a good point and that is the surplus organs for transplants.....that would solve a very immense problem and end an ethical issue - who deserves an organ more than another? Clearly, society would be far better served by a plentiful supply of replacement organs.

Thats also assuming that the person even deserves a transplant. IMO, if you kill your liver because you were a heavy drinker, then you dont deserve a new one. You smoked for 40 years and want a new lung? Im sorry, we're all out.

 

[Hogg]

Thats also assuming that the person even deserves a transplant. IMO, if you kill your liver because you were a heavy drinker, then you dont deserve a new one. You smoked for 40 years and want a new lung? Im sorry, we're all out.

I know, I know....and we could say that Pamela Anderson was a slut and deserved Hep C for banging Tommy Lee but then I kinda pond up in a corner and wonder, who the hell am I to judge what someone does or doesnt deserve? Right? Because I certainly do not want people making decisions on my behalf if they affect my livelihood....so then who am I to make a determination in regards to someone else's livelihood? I think I mentioned it in the preceding post a little.....I just, I dont know, we're soo fucking controlled already....I'd like to believe that the world could be a better place without someone sitting there with a scale in hand when a person needs something. But then again, this premise is based on the assumption that society can cull its own assholes from the herd....thats another pipe dream of mine.

 

[Hogg]

Damn, you caught the slug thing, eh? That's what I get for trying to make a funny around a smart guy like you. Doh!

I'd bet a slug would take care of the pesky cat. They work wonders on deer, that's for sure.

I use to hunt as a kid.....shot some trap, skeet, and sporting clays for a couple of years too.

 

[Mark Kerr]

BS, Forgive me my friend, as I am a drunk, so chastise me if I am over simplifying the argument on the website. I mean no disrespect...

So basically the website backs up the KILLING of a fully-functioning human clone with Scripture. I give you that. However, as a society, we have determined that the killing of a fully-functioning human being is legal if there is a greater overriding need of society (abortion, the death penalty, war, etc.) Therefore, I would put cloning into that category.

Then the debate of "fully-functioning" and "what constitutes a life" begins. If a clone is made with a fully-functioning body, but lacks a conscious or even a brain (the body is raised in a chamber), is that still considered a life? What do you think? I dont think it is myself. I dont know what God considers a life...perhaps you could give an explanation or reasoning based upon Scripture. I am not educated on that subject...

I, personally, dont find anything immoral about harboring blood and organs from a fully-developed body if the clone is conscious-less or brain-less. What do you guys think?

P.S. I hope I have not insulted you BS. Accept my apologies if I have.

 

[Grizzly]

Used to? Why not now? North end of your state has some really good Elk hunting and those are, IMO, the absolute best eating game species.

 

[Grizzly]

"I, personally, dont find anything immoral about harboring blood and organs from a fully-developed body if the clone is conscious-less or brain-less. What do you guys think?"

I'll probably end up getting more into it tomorrow, but, like Descartes said, I think, therefore, I am. No consciousness. No life.

Yes, it's true, I support "pulling the plug".