Hyperresponder and/or overdid hCG

[MingDao]

On my first cycle. Read everything and really tried not to do stupid things.
The plan was to do 250mg/wk Test E only for four weeks, then do bloods and ramp up the dose to 500mg/wk for the next 8 weeks.
Did 62mg TestE shots EOD + 200IU hCG also EOD (Ovitrele). It seems to me now that I may have miscalculated the dose and actually did ~400IU EOD.
Three weeks in started getting really itchy nipples (end of last week).
Stopped everything and started 10mg Tamox until I was able to do bloods.
Last shot was almost 4 days ago before drawing bloods. In 4 days the nipples are definitely better, but bloods are a nasty surprise:
E2 pmol/L (range 41.4 - 159) 227.54
TEST nmol/L (range 8.64 - 29) 48.23
PROL mIU/L (range 86 - 324) 388
SHBG nmol/L (range 16.5 - 55.9) 51.2

Pondering what to do now with my cycle. Will start P5P tonight and will continue Tamox for now.
Shall I just wait couple of weeks or so until things settle a bit (will re-do bloods), and/or continue at 30mg EOD with no hCG and added Arimidex/Arimistane (have both on hand)?
Thanks.

 

[Alistair7]

You need an AI but be careful you don’t take too much and crash your estrogen. Start slow and remember an AI does not have an immediate affect, it’s takes a couple days.

 

[MingDao]

Which one is better to start with? Have both.
Also, what dose of test do I continue with? I thought that it was already a low start
Thanks.

 

[Type-IIx]

Mistakes include hCG every other day (use it every 4 days) and initiating hCG too soon (wait until at least week 4). P5P won't do anything, the AI is needed to reduce E2 & its resultant prolactin increase. Very short-term use of the AI.

 

[MadBret]

Either arimidex or exemestane will work to lower your estrogen.

I believe that you more easily crash your e2 using arimidex so maybe a better bet to use exemestane.

Also, if you are using ugl adex, they are generally dosed at 1mg. Exemestane is usually dosed at 25mg so it is easier and safer to make an accurate dose with the higher mg product.

Good luck getting your numbers back to where they should be. Take care, bud.

 

[MingDao]

Yes indeed I have 1mg Adex and 25mg Exemestane tabs. Given that I am already on Tamox, and I will take a while to clear, would I start with 6.25 or 12.5 of Exemestane? Also, shall I just continue my 62mg ED shots or cut the dose as well?

 

[BigJ89]

Mistakes include hCG every other day (use it every 4 days) and initiating hCG too soon (wait until at least week 4). P5P won't do anything, the AI is needed to reduce E2 & its resultant prolactin increase. Very short-term use of the AI.

Can you elaborate on the reasoning for every 4 days dosing?

 

[Chips7]

Can you elaborate on the reasoning for every 4 days dosing?

Personally I prefer to dose my HCG every day in small doses to avoid too high a rise in estrogen.

HCG can very significantly increase estrogen, be careful.

 

[hudson98]

should never never used HCG, just ran a basic cycle of test. now the gene I out of the bottle you'll be taking anti e, risk crashing your estrogen. live and learn. next cycle don't run All these extra drugs keep your cycle simple

 

[Type-IIx]

Can you elaborate on the reasoning for every 4 days dosing?

The biological half-life of hCG and its pharmacodynamics. It'll lead to greater E2 synthesis and secretion e.o.d. vs. e.4.d.

 

[Type-IIx]

Yes indeed I have 1mg Adex and 25mg Exemestane tabs. Given that I am already on Tamox, and I will take a while to clear, would I start with 6.25 or 12.5 of Exemestane? Also, shall I just continue my 62mg ED shots or cut the dose as well?

A single dose of 12.5 mg exemestane would likely suffice (in combination with cessation temporarily from hCG; resuming later).

 

[Jin23]

On my first cycle. Read everything and really tried not to do stupid things.
The plan was to do 250mg/wk Test E only for four weeks, then do bloods and ramp up the dose to 500mg/wk for the next 8 weeks.
Did 62mg TestE shots EOD + 200IU hCG also EOD (Ovitrele). It seems to me now that I may have miscalculated the dose and actually did ~400IU EOD.
Three weeks in started getting really itchy nipples (end of last week).
Stopped everything and started 10mg Tamox until I was able to do bloods.
Last shot was almost 4 days ago before drawing bloods. In 4 days the nipples are definitely better, but bloods are a nasty surprise:
E2 pmol/L (range 41.4 - 159) 227.54
TEST nmol/L (range 8.64 - 29) 48.23
PROL mIU/L (range 86 - 324) 388
SHBG nmol/L (range 16.5 - 55.9) 51.2

Pondering what to do now with my cycle. Will start P5P tonight and will continue Tamox for now.
Shall I just wait couple of weeks or so until things settle a bit (will re-do bloods), and/or continue at 30mg EOD with no hCG and added Arimidex/Arimistane (have both on hand)?
Thanks.

Well, stop hcg for a week. Then reintroduce it at normal dose 200 eod. I wouldn't dose it e4d as that just leads to unnecessary hormone fluctuations. I usually dose it ed. The difference in more frequent or more sporadic dosing of hcg, is for me, really noticeable.

I would then, when you get your e2 under control, up the test so you get to 2500 ngdl. That's going to be around 350 for you. Also, the inclusion of an Ai will drop down your SHBG and free up some test (which is the only important factor for you really) and you'll have a much stronger cycle on your hands. No need to go to 500. If shbg stays high, with e2 in a favourable range, I'd start pinning e3.5d, so you lower your shbg a bit more (if it will still hover around 40ish with the included Ai).

Oh, one more thing, if your hcg isn't lab tested, you have fuck no idea on how much IU's there actually is. Hcg is notorious for not matching label claims.

 

[jJjburton]

Personally I prefer to dose my HCG every day in small doses to avoid too high a rise in estrogen.

HCG can very significantly increase estrogen, be careful.

Yes is ever crashed e2, i have a vial of hcg saved. Hcg made my gybo worse. Now on 600 mg test, and gyno has gone down significantly.

 

[Klimmzugernie]

A single dose of 12.5 mg exemestane would likely suffice (in combination with cessation temporarily from hCG; resuming later).

Wondering if an ai would really help because it seems that HCG creates e2 Independent from testosterone and the aromatize enzyme because in the graph below e2 peaks way earlier than T and begins to decrease before T reach its max level.
Ok this study is with goats... But I assume that makes no big difference to humans regarding these findings.

Can HCG build e2 independent from aromatize enzyme?

 

[Jin23]

Can HCG build e2 independent from aromatize enzyme?

View attachment 173879

I've seen this referenced a bunch on aas forums that hcg e2 can't really be controlled as it's made in the gonads. Also, a tendency towards E1.

 

[Type-IIx]

Wondering if an ai would really help because it seems that HCG creates e2 Independent from testosterone and the aromatize enzyme because in the graph below e2 peaks way earlier than T and begins to decrease before T reach its max level.
Ok this study is with goats... But I assume that makes no big difference to humans regarding these findings.

Can HCG build e2 independent from aromatize enzyme?

View attachment 173879

All E2 in men is the product of T =(Aromatase)=> E2. Unless you're on another aromatizing androgen (EQ, Deca), in which case.... still a product of Aromatase.

 

[Jin23]

All E2 in men is the product of T =(Aromatase)=> E2. Unless you're on another aromatizing androgen (EQ, Deca), in which case.... still a product of Aromatase.

Oh, now I see what he wrote. No, E2 definitely needs T. But my notion came more from the fact, that hcg increases ITT and gonads have highly expressed aromatase enzyme, which leads to more serum E2.

It's fairly known amongst aas users, that hcg, disproportionately to serum test levels, increases serum E2 levels. A lot of user don't want to use hcg, just because E2 becomes hard to manage. And not being able to control E2 from hcg with an Ai is a know forum anecdote.

 

[Klimmzugernie]

Do you guys know how long these effects will take place. I am in the fifth day post HCG injection (300iu eod just calculated according lable claim). Start feeling better and I lost 3 kg over night.
Based on the studies I think the effects of high aromatase enzyme should not last longer than 7 days. Is this what you see in your experiences as well?

 

[Jin23]

Do you guys know how long these effects will take place. I am in the fifth day post HCG injection (300iu eod just calculated according lable claim). Start feeling better and I lost 3 kg over night.
Based on the studies I think the effects of high aromatase enzyme should not last longer than 7 days. Is this what you see in your experiences as well?

Well, estradiol serum HL is 3 days right ...? And hcg has a HL of 36h ...

 

[Type-IIx]

Oh, now I see what he wrote. No, E2 definitely needs T. But my notion came more from the fact, that hcg increases ITT and gonads have highly expressed aromatase enzyme, which leads to more serum E2.

It's fairly known amongst aas users, that hcg, disproportionately to serum test levels, increases serum E2 levels. A lot of user don't want to use hcg, just because E2 becomes hard to manage. And not being able to control E2 from hcg with an Ai is a know forum anecdote.

A "known forum anecdote," how authoritative, heh. An AI can manage elevated E2 in men, goats and Excel Male savants notwithstanding.

It is my view that not using hCG because it might spike E2 (O NOEZ!), and not using an AI because it might not work with hCG, is just a great way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to accomplishing anything of note.