I hate off cycle.

[Dr JIM]

@Dr JIM I'm just glad your on our side a can keep the few that are willing safe from self destruction.

No offense but I'm on the side of exposing fact from fantasy and fiction from an absolute farce. All of those who ELECT to use AAS should be fully informed about their pros and cons rather than bro-science anecdotes that permeate PED boards.

Times have changed and the wealth of AAS information has changed remarkably since the "Arnie" period of the 1970s and 80s. Consequently those who insist on following the antiquated anecdotal past of that era are at a HUGE disadvantage with respect to SKM anabolism, but also with respect to the side effects of AAS, and how to prevent or minimize their onset, duration or severity.

 

[Dr JIM]

@Dr JIM

You can keep the few that are willing safe from self destruction.

And that's is what is sooo frustrating, the unwillingness of others (almost all are noobs who prance onto Meso under false pretenses) to listen and learn !

 

[Schredder]

This FACT become particularly problematic in those who run Blast / Cruise AAS
"cycles" and along with their "solution" the cumulative adverse effects of AAS are reasonably well established, although some more than others.

I can only tell you those that seem to have the greatest difficulty coming off AAS are those that also follow the bro notion of more is better. Many are running SEVERAL drugs simultaneously at HIGH DOSAGES for MONTHS on end, yet have NEVER stepped onto a stage, WTF, what's the point?

Well hello what do these AAS lifers expect, a simplified approach to PCT? Just NOT going to happen IME.

With that my suggestion is to limit your USE OF AAS to relatively moderate dosages and run no more than TWO simultaneously. But' but, but, what about my gains Doc.

Well gains are much easier to maintain or even reacquire than they are to develop anew!

Finally some find tapering from say THREE to ONE anabolic agent minimizes the PSYCHOLOGICAL impact of dropping a three drug panel abruptly, which is then followed by PCT

Other than those APPROACHES, using lLEGITIMATE TRT dosages on a chronic basis seems to be the most viable alternative for many IME.

Try discontinuing a 12 week Deca, TT and D-bol cycle IT SUCKS, but running the TT another 4-6 weeks at 500mg makes PCT MUCH easier, I PROMISE fella!

How would running a supressive compound for a LONGER period of time make PCT easier? The longer you are shut down the HARDER it is to recover. Where in earth is this idea from?

Wouldnt the addition of HCG throughout the cycle be a better option in terms of a possible better, smoother recovery then staying 'on' would?

'If you want a better recovery, stay shut down longer' lol ok. And what if someone isnt running TT, Deca and Tbol and is only running a Test only cycle at 400mg/wk. Is he supposed to bump that up to 500mg for another 4-6 weeks so he has a smoother recovery? Ummmmm. Please explain.

There is nothing possible to be done about feeling better while your on AAS as opposed to off of them. They make you perform better at everything. Thats what they do. It hard no matter what to go from being a 8/10 at everything to a 6/10 at everything just as an example. Bigger, stronger, faster, increased libido, increased sense of well being and the list goes on! It not a 'drug addict' type of mentality which yoi seem to be making it out to be.

 

[Schredder]

Finally IDK for sure why but Nandrolone is the most difficult AAS to discontinue (in MANY mates) on an emotional basis and for that reason should be the first one stopped IMO.

I've had many patients complain of outright depression trying to get off Deca!

How would Nandrolone be the hardest to discontinue? Do you mean hardest to recover from? You are somewhat right but it isnt Nandrolone, it is 19-nor compounds which are the hardest to recover from. Those include Nandrolone, which you mentioned. And also Trenbolone.

19-nor compounds have the added suppression which comes from estrogenic & progestogenic activity, which inhibits LH & FSH by directly downregulating GnRH receptors on the pituitary gland. 19-nor compounds are more suppressive because they bind to the AR & PR as opposed to just the the AR and ER like most other compounds, to become suppressive through different avenues.

 

[Schredder]

And that's is what is sooo frustrating, the unwillingness of others (almost all are noobs who prance onto Meso under false pretenses) to listen and learn !

Where you at man!!! Answer up!!! Telling guys to run gear for a longer period to make for a smoother recovery? Your kidding me right. Answer up man. Wheres the evidence that is a wise or even scientic idea for a better smoother recover. Post it up wise guy. Back you shit up or shut up.

 

[Melly Mel from hell]

Where you at man!!! Answer up!!! Telling guys to run gear for a longer period to make for a smoother recovery? Your kidding me right. Answer up man. Wheres the evidence that is a wise or even scientic idea for a better smoother recover. Post it up wise guy. Back you shit up or shut up.

Dude. What the fuck is your problem. If you have a difference of opinion or question the information or idea another member has that's one thing but you're acting a little big for your britches.
Dr. Jim is a well respected member who has helped many many people here at Meso over the YEARS that he's been here.
Again anyone has the right to question an opinion or advise given by anyone else but you've been here for like one fucking second.
If you want to get on many peoples bad side keep it up.
There are members here that contribute nothing. There are trolls. There are members that know nothing but think they know eveything and then there are members like Dr. Jim and several of the other vets that go out of their way to help people and offer their wisdom and experience.
You've not proven yourself to be anything yet so slow your roll.

It's obvious what he's saying is to not dump your whole cycle at once so as not to be a major shock to your system. Hold onto the Test and let your body adjust to the other compounds being out then lose the test and do your PCT. If he's talking about extending only the Test part of your cycle another 4 - 6 weeks. how is that going to do any harm.
I've run 6 week cycles and I've run 20 week cycles. I've been cycling gear on and off for 20 years and depending how much and what your running has everything to do with cycle length.
He's saying 500mg not 2 grams. There are plenty of people that are cruising at 300mg a week as their TRT without issues.
How much experience do you have. How many cycles have you run or are you one of those guys that reads alot of information and thinks they know what their talking about.
Gauranteed you don't have 10% of the knowledge through experience that Dr. Jim has.
Show some fuckin respect sonny.

 

[Ryno1980]

I feel ya. My off cycle never seems to last as long as I plan for it too.

Lol... my last 8 week cruise was 4..lol

 

[Ryno1980]

This FACT become particularly problematic in those who run Blast / Cruise AAS
"cycles" and along with their "solution" the cumulative adverse effects of AAS are reasonably well established, although some more than others.

I can only tell you those that seem to have the greatest difficulty coming off AAS are those that also follow the bro notion of more is better. Many are running SEVERAL drugs simultaneously at HIGH DOSAGES for MONTHS on end, yet have NEVER stepped onto a stage, WTF, what's the point?

Well hello what do these AAS lifers expect, a simplified approach to PCT? Just NOT going to happen IME.

With that my suggestion is to limit your USE OF AAS to relatively moderate dosages and run no more than TWO simultaneously. But' but, but, what about my gains Doc.

Well gains are much easier to maintain or even reacquire than they are to develop anew!

Finally some find tapering from say THREE to ONE anabolic agent minimizes the PSYCHOLOGICAL impact of dropping a three drug panel abruptly, which is then followed by PCT

Other than those APPROACHES, using lLEGITIMATE TRT dosages on a chronic basis seems to be the most viable alternative for many IME.

Try discontinuing a 12 week Deca, TT and D-bol cycle IT SUCKS, but running the TT another 4-6 weeks at 500mg makes PCT MUCH easier, I PROMISE fella!

Excellent advice doc...

 

[Ryno1980]

Where you at man!!! Answer up!!! Telling guys to run gear for a longer period to make for a smoother recovery? Your kidding me right. Answer up man. Wheres the evidence that is a wise or even scientic idea for a better smoother recover. Post it up wise guy. Back you shit up or shut up.

I believe he was referring to the mental aspect of beginning pct... meaning that the test for an additonal 5 Week would help you mentally deal with dropping the other compounds before you pct...

 

[Schredder]

Dude. What the fuck is your problem. If you have a difference of opinion or question the information or idea another member has that's one thing but you're acting a little big for your britches.
Dr. Jim is a well respected member who has helped many many people here at Meso over the YEARS that he's been here.
Again anyone has the right to question an opinion or advise given by anyone else but you've been here for like one fucking second.
If you want to get on many peoples bad side keep it up.
There are members here that contribute nothing. There are trolls. There are members that know nothing but think they know eveything and then there are members like Dr. Jim and several of the other vets that go out of their way to help people and offer their wisdom and experience.
You've not proven yourself to be anything yet so slow your roll.

It's obvious what he's saying is to not dump your whole cycle at once so as not to be a major shock to your system. Hold onto the Test and let your body adjust to the other compounds being out then lose the test and do your PCT. If he's talking about extending only the Test part of your cycle another 4 - 6 weeks. how is that going to do any harm.
I've run 6 week cycles and I've run 20 week cycles. I've been cycling gear on and off for 20 years and depending how much and what your running has everything to do with cycle length.
He's saying 500mg not 2 grams. There are plenty of people that are cruising at 300mg a week as their TRT without issues.
How much experience do you have. How many cycles have you run or are you one of those guys that reads alot of information and thinks they know what their talking about.
Gauranteed you don't have 10% of the knowledge through experience that Dr. Jim has.
Show some fuckin respect sonny.

Here is my problem. And let me first start out by saying that yes, I am new here and like any place one is a new member of I must earn respect, despite experience. I get that and that is fine. If I need to let off on Jim to not ruin that then that is also fine. I like this place actually and once you get to know me I am quite the opposite as I made myself out to be in the post you quoted me in.

Having said that. Whether Im new here or have been here for 100 years should have no bearing on whether or not I can question someone and try to engage in a discussion to either help the person Im debating with learn, me learn or someone else learn. I am not just a guy who reads a lot of information and thinks he knows what he is talking about although I do some reading. I have 12 years under my belt of bodybuilding and running gear. How many cycles? I have lost count. Ive ran cycle form 8 weeks in length to 24 weeks in length. I have run almost every compound numerous time, and am on TRT and have done enough research to be able to get my own blood work and monitor it and take care of that myself without any hangups. I am not tooting my own horn, Im just letting you know because you asked. I do not know everything. If fact I will be forever learning but in my 12 years at this I have learned a lot and I wont ever talk about something I dont know about like I do know about it.

My issue with Jim is the fact that I came across a post he made which was flat out incorrect. It was not my opinion. It was a fact. I made a comment but then decided to leave it alone. He said something to the effect of 'dont just stand there do something if you disagree' or whatever he said. So I did, on numerous occasions. A couple because what he said was incorrect, a couple other statements and a couple comments to set up a debate in hope of gathering info to help the members here. These were all done professionally without any attitude. No reply to any of them execpt that what Im saying is broscience (which it wasnt), I am a noob, and something to the effects of people need to come to Meso with the willingness to learn. No how can I take him seriously when hes doing stuff like that? I searched his post and from what I see he beats around the bush a lot with scientific terms rarely answering questions directly and just calls people noobs and quotes what they say as broscience if theres even a hint of disagreeance. And no thats not a shot at him that is an observation. I have knowledge and if he does too I want to have debates. I like that. I think thats healthy. Id even like to learn something from him and help someone else learn by us conversing too!!

I dont care if hes been here for 100 year man there is a way to talk to people and its not how he does. He does not know everything and i just dont get why he wont admit he doesnt (he did admit he didnt know how Nandrolone affected the body and why recovery was difficult and I provided him the answer without mention or thank you or any kind. Not what Im looking for but still, humble is ok) or come back with his thoughts against my thoughts. Thats why my comment was what is was dude. He calls me out, I back all my shit up and he comes back with nothing, no counter arguement, no comments, nothing. So I can only assume he does not have an answer to my questions or intellegent comments against mine. Other people have to jump in and comment for him. Cmon. He is not the end all be all. Even if he know some stuff the strutting around like Stalin, talking down to those who disagree and liking posts of those who agree just seems kinda fucked to me.

Again no disrespect intended. But if he is a teacher teachers can learn too.

PS I have weighed in on many conversation with my though in hopes of helping. Look around.

PSS 10% of his knowledge......lol.

 

[Melly Mel from hell]

Here is my problem. And let me first start out by saying that yes, I am new here and like any place one is a new member of I must earn respect, despite experience. I get that and that is fine. If I need to let off on Jim to not ruin that then that is also fine. I like this place actually and once you get to know me I am quite the opposite as I made myself out to be in the post you quoted me in.

Having said that. Whether Im new here or have been here for 100 years should have no bearing on whether or not I can question someone and try to engage in a discussion to either help the person Im debating with learn, me learn or someone else learn. I am not just a guy who reads a lot of information and thinks he knows what he is talking about although I do some reading. I have 12 years under my belt of bodybuilding and running gear. How many cycles? I have lost count. Ive ran cycle form 8 weeks in length to 24 weeks in length. I have run almost every compound numerous time, and am on TRT and have done enough research to be able to get my own blood work and monitor it and take care of that myself without any hangups. I am not tooting my own horn, Im just letting you know because you asked. I do not know everything. If fact I will be forever learning but in my 12 years at this I have learned a lot and I wont ever talk about something I dont know about like I do know about it.

My issue with Jim is the fact that I came across a post he made which was flat out incorrect. It was not my opinion. It was a fact. I made a comment but then decided to leave it alone. He said something to the effect of 'dont just stand there do something if you disagree' or whatever he said. So I did, on numerous occasions. A couple because what he said was incorrect, a couple other statements and a couple comments to set up a debate in hope of gathering info to help the members here. These were all done professionally without any attitude. No reply to any of them execpt that what Im saying is broscience (which it wasnt), I am a noob, and something to the effects of people need to come to Meso with the willingness to learn. No how can I take him seriously when hes doing stuff like that? I searched his post and from what I see he beats around the bush a lot with scientific terms rarely answering questions directly and just calls people noobs and quotes what they say as broscience if theres even a hint of disagreeance. And no thats not a shot at him that is an observation. I have knowledge and if he does too I want to have debates. I like that. I think thats healthy. Id even like to learn something from him and help someone else learn by us conversing too!!

I dont care if hes been here for 100 year man there is a way to talk to people and its not how he does. He does not know everything and i just dont get why he wont admit he doesnt (he did admit he didnt know how Nandrolone affected the body and why recovery was difficult and I provided him the answer without mention or thank you or any kind. Not what Im looking for but still, humble is ok) or come back with his thoughts against my thoughts. Thats why my comment was what is was dude. He calls me out, I back all my shit up and he comes back with nothing, no counter arguement, no comments, nothing. So I can only assume he does not have an answer to my questions or intellegent comments against mine. Other people have to jump in and comment for him. Cmon. He is not the end all be all. Even if he know some stuff the strutting around like Stalin, talking down to those who disagree and liking posts of those who agree just seems kinda fucked to me.

Again no disrespect intended. But if he is a teacher teachers can learn too.

PS I have weighed in on many conversation with my though in hopes of helping. Look around.

PSS 10% of his knowledge......lol.

Thank you for your gentlemanly response.
I don't know how much you know so you're right. I shouldn't have said 10% because you could be a Dr. or a research scientist for all I know.
I will agree that Dr. Jim can be a dick with the way he talks to people. No bedside manner. With that being said, he takes the time to contribute here and I believe for the reason to sincerely be of help. For that I respect him. I do wish he wasn't such a dick to people though.
My problem with your attitude and with the attitude of quite alot of new members here is that when you enter a new social group you should take ENOUGH time to get to know who's who, establish yourself as a presence, contribute what you can, and be respectful until you have done enough to have earned your place in that social group. That's what I did when I joined and I belive that's why I have the respect of enough members here so when I call them out on something it becomes a healthy debate and not 5 pages of insult slinging.
However, if you have history with Dr. Jim and this is an ongoing thing then I get it. One can only be disrespected so many times before the claws come out. I don't know your history with Dr. Jim so I won't speak of what in ignorant of.
I will say I've read other posts of yours and you seem like a good guy. Time always tells eventually.
Peace.

 

[Docd187123]

How would running a supressive compound for a LONGER period of time make PCT easier? The longer you are shut down the HARDER it is to recover. Where in earth is this idea from?

Wouldnt the addition of HCG throughout the cycle be a better option in terms of a possible better, smoother recovery then staying 'on' would?

'If you want a better recovery, stay shut down longer' lol ok. And what if someone isnt running TT, Deca and Tbol and is only running a Test only cycle at 400mg/wk. Is he supposed to bump that up to 500mg for another 4-6 weeks so he has a smoother recovery? Ummmmm. Please explain.

There is nothing possible to be done about feeling better while your on AAS as opposed to off of them. They make you perform better at everything. Thats what they do. It hard no matter what to go from being a 8/10 at everything to a 6/10 at everything just as an example. Bigger, stronger, faster, increased libido, increased sense of well being and the list goes on! It not a 'drug addict' type of mentality which yoi seem to be making it out to be.

He's talking about the psychological aspect of PCT.

 

[Docd187123]

How would Nandrolone be the hardest to discontinue? Do you mean hardest to recover from? You are somewhat right but it isnt Nandrolone, it is 19-nor compounds which are the hardest to recover from. Those include Nandrolone, which you mentioned. And also Trenbolone.

19-nor compounds have the added suppression which comes from estrogenic & progestogenic activity, which inhibits LH & FSH by directly downregulating GnRH receptors on the pituitary gland. 19-nor compounds are more suppressive because they bind to the AR & PR as opposed to just the the AR and ER like most other compounds, to become suppressive through different avenues.

Nandrolone and it's metabolites last much longer in the body than does trenbolone, hence nandrolone is harder to recover from than tren regardless of the fact they're both 19-nors

 

[Docd187123]

Where you at man!!! Answer up!!! Telling guys to run gear for a longer period to make for a smoother recovery? Your kidding me right. Answer up man. Wheres the evidence that is a wise or even scientic idea for a better smoother recover. Post it up wise guy. Back you shit up or shut up.

Running test 4-6wks longer than deca when you're already shut down for 3 months will not make a significant impact upon recovery but can make for an easier transition into recovery.

 

[Burrr]

I think I get what Jim was saying,
let that Deca get completely out of your system by running just test for another 5 weeks

Deca sucks to recover from

 

[trying to get big]

Hey @Dr JIM.....would you think that running a low amount of deca along side with your trt dose of test be ok in the long run?? Manly for joint relief just curious what your thoughts are on this.

 

[Dr JIM]

In spite of Nandrolone being available as an RX AAS I've yet to find any evidence it's "joint benefits" exceed that of any other AAS that raises E-2 levels

To that end, what AAS is almost always cycled with Nandrolne, TESTOSTERONE, yet it remains an innocent bystander, and being a gentleman, says nothing when Nanny gets all the accolades

As for your question TRT is exactly that Testosterone replacement to reach physiologic
levels, anything else is cycling IMO.

Nonetheless lowering the dosage
of any AAS to more reasonable therapeutic quantities, is likely to lower the risk of adverse effects

 

[Dr JIM]

Nandrolone and it's metabolites last much longer in the body than does trenbolone, hence nandrolone is harder to recover from than tren regardless of the fact they're both 19-nors

But that's the problem with Clowns like Schredder NOT,

They know just enough about AAS to put their foot into their mouths, thereafter making painstaking efforts to remove it by deflecting criticism onto others.

And to those Clowns, "I'm a dick", and proud of it!

I'm not here to hold hands and tell folk
what they are considering is wise bc for MOST of Meso's noobs, the use of AAS is NOT a wise decision.

And if my telling them such a choice is a foolish one, and they become "offended", to bad, welcome to the difference bt a uncensored MENS health board where the focus is PEDs, and that of innumerable self help PSYCH Forums.

 

[DonQKong]

You Guys type so many words in this thread. Are you smart or something wtf ?

 

[Dr JIM]

Where you at man!!! Answer up!!! Telling guys to run gear for a longer period to make for a smoother recovery? Your kidding me right. Answer up man. Wheres the evidence that is a wise or even scientic idea for a better smoother recover. Post it up wise guy. Back you shit up or shut up.

Damn your a fool who can't READ!

Because the options I posed were based on my experience RECOVERING many Clowns like yourself who used AAS like candy.

No where did I imply or suggest anything to the contrary bc I'm not an unread unlearned clown like yourself and KNOW, exclusive of case studies and the extrapolation of TRT,or fertility data PCT itself is NOT EVIDENCED BASED, Bozo!

Have you seen a psychiatrist for what is most likely a Bipolar or Schizophreniform disorder? No, hmm well you may discover Lithium does wonders for those with such overt insecurities and the depression that's soon to follow.