Is Clomid alone sufficient for pct, after a 6 week prop (100mg eod) cycle?

Daveanthony

New Member
I can get nolva if needed but was told by a trt dr in CT that nolva should be avoided as i used it on previous cycles.

Also I cant seem to get a general consensus on using an ai during pct. if i can remember last cycle i tapered down my ai during pct. what are your thoughts on this as well?

Have to stop cycle early because i will be traveling in the next few weeks and wont be able to bring anything.
 
So your saying clomid is not sufficient on its own. Fuckin dr’s get paid too much.
If you can only use one, use Clomid. Do a quick scan of that idiots posts on this forum. We're all still confused why he isn't banned. Total troll.

I recovered from a big cycle just fine with hcg between cycle and Clomid, then Clomid @100mg per day.
 
If you can only use one, use Clomid
Stop giving advice dude PLEASE. You have screwed enough people already with your attention deficit syndrome. Ignorant advice is bad advice. You don't even look like you lift o_O

With that said...

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," ?a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
 
@EcpertRealistic Please stop with your comments...First off what do looks have anything to do with knowledge? Do you think all doctors looked jacked and swole??? You must know more then them though because you look good right? Not. Secondly, why not just respectfully disagree instead of being immature, ranting and raving at him. I don't even know why you come on here...all you do is give bad advice and piss people off. You’re going to get some naive individual hurt..
 
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Stop giving advice dude PLEASE. You have screwed enough people already with your attention deficit syndrome. Ignorant advice is bad advice. You don't even look like you lift o_O
You are a clown.

1. Have any of the most knowledgeable members on here quiz both you and I and we'll see who scores higher.

2. You have no clue what I look like but if you'd like to share your stats I'd be interested to see.
 
If you can only use one, use Clomid. Do a quick scan of that idiots posts on this forum. We're all still confused why he isn't banned. Total troll.

I recovered from a big cycle just fine with hcg between cycle and Clomid, then Clomid @100mg per day.

No. Clomid might suffice if the cycle was short and basic, and if OP is still young, but most studies clearly point out that nolvadex does a better job and is a more “pure” SERM. Also, the pituitary requires higher amounts of GnRH when clomid is used in order to achieve the same level of LH stimulation as opposed to nolva.
 
No. Clomid might suffice if the cycle was short and basic, and if OP is still young, but most studies clearly point out that nolvadex does a better job and is a more “pure” SERM. Also, the pituitary requires higher amounts of GnRH when clomid is used in order to achieve the same level of LH stimulation as opposed to nolva.
Very interesting, I will look into that.

I was largely going off my own experience from a large, longer cycle. Thank you for your input man
 
I can get nolva if needed but was told by a trt dr in CT that nolva should be avoided as i used it on previous cycles.

Also I cant seem to get a general consensus on using an ai during pct. if i can remember last cycle i tapered down my ai during pct. what are your thoughts on this as well?

Have to stop cycle early because i will be traveling in the next few weeks and wont be able to bring anything.
IMO No

During Pct you restart two things
1 the pituitary back to making LH/FSH
2 the testis back to making Testosterone (and sperm if you want kids)

the pituitary always comes back (provided there's no excess Estrogen or AAS in blood)
the testis may not come back to normal
hence my advise: HCG during cycle, and some weeks into pct

You may need some AI to lower excess Estro from HCG or aromatizable steroid cycles.
During normal pct your estro will likely be LOW, thus AI will crash it further.
 
No. Clomid might suffice if the cycle was short and basic, and if OP is still young, but most studies clearly point out that nolvadex does a better job and is a more “pure” SERM. Also, the pituitary requires higher amounts of GnRH when clomid is used in order to achieve the same level of LH stimulation as opposed to nolva.
Agreed. 70s studies our outdated. There's some doctors give low dose Clomid therapy as opposed to trt. And I believe a six week test only you could recover without anything....though I'll get flamed. Why do a six week prop cycle at 350mg a week anyway? Wait till u can do 8 or 10 at least. There's some folks saying now u only need nolva for gyno. Ten years ago alot of guys only pctd with nolva....shit changes I guess like whether egg yolks are bad for you. Just my opinion on what I've read.
 
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Agreed. 70s studies our outdated. There's some doctors give low dose Clomid therapy as opposed to trt. And I believe a six week test only you could recover without anything....though I'll get flamed. Why do a six week prop cycle at 350mg a week anyway? Wait till u can do 8 or 10 at least. There's some folks saying now u only need nolva for gyno. Ten years ago alot of guys only pctd with nolva....shit changes I guess like whether egg yolks are bad for you. Just my opinion on what I've read.

Shit happens, have to travel in the next few weeks not trying to bring pharmacom prop with me on the plane it aint worth it so i had to end early. I will have nolva in a few days might as well add it in anyway right? Based on the trt clinics opinion on nolva i wasnt sure if it was still being used as often as it used to be. Thanks
 
If youre young enough and healthy, you may not require ANY SERM's at all for the above cycle.

As Bullocks correctly pointed out, clomiphene's roll is to assist in stimulating the testes in producing testosterone. However, in otherwise young healthy males, no SERM's at all are required particularly for light short cycles. These results have also been demonstrated successfully in older males as well.
 
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