Seems logical dr jim. Thanks for the post. I have plenty to learn on the gh/peptide side of things. Your post is right in line with how I thought gh was distributed.
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Anabolic Steroids
Is your Growth Hormone real? A guide to find out (updated)
- Thread starter heavyiron
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There is no debate in if Pharmacy Human grade is better then Chinese black market 
Hard to disagree there I think we would all agree.
But lets talk $ per $ and effectiveness?
Bodybuilders are usualy not the smartest guys Often they worry about results over health. Add to it they are looking to stay within a reasonable budget. Human grade hgh is just not an option for very many.
Also consider this. The same exact sandoz omnitrope (97.5% pure from the pharmacy)
I had one of our 10 yr members Inject 10iu of it, take the serum blood test.
Result came back in the 30`s
Hard to disagree there I think we would all agree.But lets talk $ per $ and effectiveness?
Bodybuilders are usualy not the smartest guys
Often they worry about results over health. Add to it they are looking to stay within a reasonable budget. Human grade hgh is just not an option for very many.Also consider this. The same exact sandoz omnitrope (97.5% pure from the pharmacy)
I had one of our 10 yr members Inject 10iu of it, take the serum blood test.
Result came back in the 30`s
Last edited:
Re: Heavy Iron!
Good to see you too brother!
I'll drop in the GH testing forum at pro muscle soon and see what I have been missing. I have not been there in a long time but I have been doing MANY lab tests for the love of chem =)
Good to see you too brother!
I'll drop in the GH testing forum at pro muscle soon and see what I have been missing. I have not been there in a long time but I have been doing MANY lab tests for the love of chem =)
MM
If your predosing "rGH" at 10IU (as HI has suggested) and high end analysis reveals a spot GH level of only 20ng/dl, the product is BUNK, and you should demand an immediate refund, lol!
You said the method was crude now you are using the results to make judgments? That seems like a contradiction.
I have posted USA pharm results in this thread that were under 20ng/mL. The real world is not always textbook.
Raj,
From what I am understanding the serum level wouldn't mean much other than the fact that gh was real (I know u already knew it was). It would seem from my understanding that you would need to do the igf tests to see dollar for dollar effectiveness. If what drjim says is true about igf levels and how they react per iu of gh then the hg would be obviously a better investment. No middle men to pay. There is no way to get the iu to iu effectiveness without increasing the generic dosage to the point to cover the cut of the drug. Ie: if its been stepped on 10 times than an igf test would show them even at 1iu of hg gh and 10iu of generic gh.
From what I am understanding the serum level wouldn't mean much other than the fact that gh was real (I know u already knew it was). It would seem from my understanding that you would need to do the igf tests to see dollar for dollar effectiveness. If what drjim says is true about igf levels and how they react per iu of gh then the hg would be obviously a better investment. No middle men to pay. There is no way to get the iu to iu effectiveness without increasing the generic dosage to the point to cover the cut of the drug. Ie: if its been stepped on 10 times than an igf test would show them even at 1iu of hg gh and 10iu of generic gh.
Has anyone tested pharm grade such as norditropin or humatrope to compare gh serum levels with 10 iu's? HI have you had a chance to do so?
mands
mands
Heavy,
The results of the hg gh would only show its real if I understand this. I agree about your last point with drjim. But it would seem an igf level would be needed to show iu to iu effectiveness.
The results of the hg gh would only show its real if I understand this. I agree about your last point with drjim. But it would seem an igf level would be needed to show iu to iu effectiveness.
JC3,
Igf test should be used in conjunction with it.
With the Igf test though it takes a few weeks for the levels to build up.
Id say test after 14 days of use, or research up on it.
I agree yes it should be used and is another effective tool for buyers- Bodybuilders.
I Agree with Dr.Jim in it being a crude way (serum test)
I do not think it will tell the mg or purity. Only real from fake.
By real I mean hgh being present.
$ per $ I would bet a serious amount of money The China black market brand would blow away the usa pharmacy brand. (that is if I get to pick the brand)
It could be IGF,Serum,Lab analyzing or any other method known to man.
Its a shame but the mark up on most usa pharmacy is 1000%
That is for anabolics also. We can buy a Viagra for example for what... a penny to make from raw material?
But from the Usa Pharmacy your looking at 10$ Mark up is insane.
Igf test should be used in conjunction with it.
With the Igf test though it takes a few weeks for the levels to build up.
Id say test after 14 days of use, or research up on it.
I agree yes it should be used and is another effective tool for buyers- Bodybuilders.
I Agree with Dr.Jim in it being a crude way (serum test)
I do not think it will tell the mg or purity. Only real from fake.
By real I mean hgh being present.
$ per $ I would bet a serious amount of money The China black market brand would blow away the usa pharmacy brand. (that is if I get to pick the brand)
It could be IGF,Serum,Lab analyzing or any other method known to man.
Its a shame but the mark up on most usa pharmacy is 1000%
That is for anabolics also. We can buy a Viagra for example for what... a penny to make from raw material?
But from the Usa Pharmacy your looking at 10$ Mark up is insane.
Thank you for addressing that raj. I understand the raaw vs usa grade prices on anabolics etc. I don't think it applies here tho. Reason being that all the generics came from the same hg kits..not raws or china manufacturer. They are being stepped on. I would think the man in control of the gh supply gets paid same either way. 10 times markup on hg or generic cut down 10 times.
With that thought out I will now say that the dollar per dollar use may be the same. It also seems that we should stop using generics if this holds true. Why shoot cut for no reason...?
With that thought out I will now say that the dollar per dollar use may be the same. It also seems that we should stop using generics if this holds true. Why shoot cut for no reason...?
Yes, several of us including myself have tested USA pharm rHGH brother.
Im not sure I follow?
what do you mean that all generics came from the same hg kit?
What is being "stepped on"
It sounds Like maybe you think guys buy hg(Human grade) and cut it?
Like a Street dealer would do with Coke or meth?
Not the case... or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying?
That is what I understand if it cannot be produced as drjim says. I am also not new to the boards...I have seen conversations pretty much word for word expressing that gh is cut like coke.
I would also like to say that I am new to hgh discussions. I had no prior interest. I would ad that I have no interests in any of this other than personal use. I also respect and thank everyone for their posts here. I hope I do not come across harsh.
I would also like to say that I am new to hgh discussions. I had no prior interest. I would ad that I have no interests in any of this other than personal use. I also respect and thank everyone for their posts here. I hope I do not come across harsh.
Not harsh at all Buddy! We are all here to learn and help!
I learn new things all the time and try to always keep an open mind.
rHGH is certainly produced in China.
The first to make it very popular there was LeiJin.
Search his story, Id say Millard has a lot of good articles about it.
I learn new things all the time and try to always keep an open mind.
rHGH is certainly produced in China.
The first to make it very popular there was LeiJin.
Search his story, Id say Millard has a lot of good articles about it.
That I would consider a real hgh. I do not know how good those are as it depends on quality control. I am speaking about the generics such as the different color tops out now.
NOT, your the first person to declare the test was crude HI, and indeed it is, as your using it!
However there is a HUGE difference between the levels achieved at ONE IU, (or 0.77 as demonstrated in the THERAPEUTIC study you cited) compared to TEN, and you SHOULD know this.
I contend it's bunk because I have around 6-8 BB/ lifters whom are using 3-4 of rGH daily, and upon appropriate lab directed testing all are well above the 40ng/dl range.
Admittedly I am not aware of any studies which evaluated, or anyone whom legitimately uses, TEN IU therapeutically but, based on simple extrapolation from known studies, I would expect a lower AUC variance (in part because of GH protein binding) yet even LOW END GH values should be higher than 20ng/dl after the administration of TEN IU!
Moreover it exemplifies WHY the test is NOT an appropriate screening tool for GH presence, and should be abandoned for IGF testing as mentioned earlier, do that and you'll note the "contradictions", conflicts and confusion, wither in the wind!
However there is a HUGE difference between the levels achieved at ONE IU, (or 0.77 as demonstrated in the THERAPEUTIC study you cited) compared to TEN, and you SHOULD know this.
I contend it's bunk because I have around 6-8 BB/ lifters whom are using 3-4 of rGH daily, and upon appropriate lab directed testing all are well above the 40ng/dl range.
Admittedly I am not aware of any studies which evaluated, or anyone whom legitimately uses, TEN IU therapeutically but, based on simple extrapolation from known studies, I would expect a lower AUC variance (in part because of GH protein binding) yet even LOW END GH values should be higher than 20ng/dl after the administration of TEN IU!
Moreover it exemplifies WHY the test is NOT an appropriate screening tool for GH presence, and should be abandoned for IGF testing as mentioned earlier, do that and you'll note the "contradictions", conflicts and confusion, wither in the wind!
The study I cited for IM administration is 0.033 mg/kg i.m. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of GH: dependence on route and dosage of administration
The folowing is for a 100 kilo person (I weigh more than that)
.033mg x 100kg (220lb) = 3.3 x 2.7 = 8.91iu rHGH
Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of GH: dependence on route and dosage of administration
Alexandra Keller, Zida Wu1, Juergen Kratzsch2, Eberhard Keller, Werner F Blum3, Astrid Kniess4, Rainer Preiss5, Jens Teichert5, Christian J Strasburger1 and Martin Bidlingmaier6
Hospital for Children and Adolescents, University of Leipzig, Oststr. 21–25, D-04317 Leipzig, Germany, 1Division of Clinical Endocrinology, Department of Medicine, Charité University-Medicine, 10117 Berlin, Germany, 2Institute of Laboratory Medicine, Clinical Chemistry and Molecular Diagnostics, University of Leipzig, 61350 Leipzig, Germany, 3Eli Lilly & Co., Bad Homburg, Germany and Children’s Hospital, University of Giessen, 01731 Giessen, Germany, 4Institute of Doping Analysis and Sports Biochemistry, 04107 Kreischa, Germany, 5Institute of Clinical Pharmacology, University of Leipzig, Leipzig, Germany and 6Department of Internal Medicine, Ludwig Maximillian University of Munich, 80336 Munich, Germany
Abstract
Objective: Pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic data after recombinant human GH (rhGH) administration in adults are scarce, but necessary to optimize replacement therapy and to detect doping. We examined pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, and 20 kDa GH after injection of rhGH at different doses and routes of administration.
Design: Open-label crossover study with single boluses of rhGH.
Methods: Healthy trained subjects (10 males, 10 females) received bolus injections of rhGH on three occasions: 0.033 mg/kg s.c., 0.083 mg/kg s.c., and 0.033 mg/kg i.m. Concentrations of 22 and 20 kDa GH, IGF-I, and IGF-binding proteins (IGFBP)-3 were measured repeatedly before and up to 36 h after injection.
Results: Serum GH maximal concentration (Cmax) and area under the time-concentration curve (AUC) were higher after i.m. than s.c. administration of 0.033 mg/kg (Cmax 35.5 and 12.0 ? g/l; AUC 196.2 and 123.8). Cmax and AUC were higher in males than in females (P < 0.01) and pharmacodynamic changes were more pronounced. IGFBP-3 concentrations showed no dose dependency. In response to rhGH administration, 20 kDa GH decreased in females and remained suppressed for 14–18 h (low dose) and 30 h (high dose). In males, 20 kDa GH was undetectable at baseline and throughout the study.
Conclusions: After rhGH administration, pharmacokinetic parameters are mainly influenced by route of administration, whereas pharmacodynamic variables and 20 kDa GH concentrations are determined mainly by gender. These differences need to be considered for therapeutic use and for detection of rhGH doping.
Goodness HI the DOSE USED is 0.77 IU and NOT TEN, cease the perpetual apple to orange comparisons,
or don't you know the difference?
or don't you know the difference?
Please show your math and the citation for .77 iu..
Mg to iu conversion is typically 2.7-3 times.
The study I cited for IM administration is 0.033 mg/kg i.m.
The folowing is for a 100 kilo person
.033mg x 100kg (220lb) = 3.3 x 2.7 = 8.91iu rHGH
Methods: Healthy trained subjects (10 males, 10 females) received bolus injections of rhGH on three occasions: 0.033 mg/kg s.c., 0.083 mg/kg s.c., and 0.033 mg/kg i.m. Concentrations of 22 and 20 kDa GH, IGF-I, and IGF-binding proteins (IGFBP)-3 were measured repeatedly before and up to 36 h after injection.
Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of GH: dependence on route and dosage of administration
I just looked back to see that you posted a USA phram grade product and the results were actually a little lower. Thanks for the post and info HI.
mands
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