Is your Growth Hormone real? A guide to find out (updated)

[Dr JIM]

HI
Apparently you are unaware deficiencies of either GH or IGF can cause stature developmental issues in kido's and although their treatment differs (GH or
IGF-1 supplementation) respectively, the most reliable means of determining efficacy of EITHER DRUG is THE MEASUREMENT OF IGF levels and NOT GH!

Why you insist on performing a less accurate measurement, GH analysis, as a means of refuting or confirming the authenticity of either "supplement", is beyond reason.

This seems particularly egregious since doing so is CONTRARY TO EXISTING MEDICAL STANDARDS and is a classical example of how "bro science" is propagated, throughout forums, only to reappear as morphed dogma!

 

[heavyiron]

OK, I'll sell you some IGF-1 labeled as GH and you can do your IGF-1 test and prove you are injecting GH. LOL!

I'm not opposed to both tests but the point of this thread is proving if the GH being injected IS GH!!!

I inject GH and my GH levels rise by a factor of 50 times. I'm pretty sure the GH is REAL!

 

[idmd]

[ame="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-J_3d2J2u4huuY/austin_powers_in_goldmember_2002_kicking_out_mini_me/"]Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002): Kicking out Mini-Me - Video[/ame]

The little one doesn't get it....because he is small....

 

[Dr JIM]

I did NOT say or infer IGF testing can distinguish between a GH or an IGF supplement, however it matters not since serum levels are directly proportional.
That is, if either one increases, that change is reflected in the serum level of the other (excluding pathologic disease states).

However because that influence persists much longer with IGF, the analysis becomes MUCH MORE reliable.

Moreover your example (using 50 ng/dl) is a very rare phenomena ESPECIALLY in the context of generic GH. (I've never seen anything close to that with "generic GH")

More importantly because spot GH testing has such a low sensitivity and limited specificity, the value in your example could also be considerably lower than 50 ng/dl, say less than 20ng/dl, yet the product may still be GTG!

Consequently if IGF levels double from baseline the product is legitimate especially if said doubling occurs with 2IU or less.

GH testing simply confers no additional benefit as a means of rGH supplement confirmation, especially if a relative product concentrations is also an objective of analysis

 

[leoclaw79]

Question: hope it can help the conversation but is igf-1testing more expensive than GH testing. I would guess igf1 testing would indicate more your exact levels of GH. But I would assume that if you are trying to see if
what is in your vial is rGH then testing for GH would make more sense. In any case if there's lots Of fake counterfeits on the market, then it would be a step forward if you cOuld determine if what you're getting is actually growth hormone. In the case that there's not much GH bring sold to people then would igf testing indicate more correctly the actual GH levels of your blood? Don't really care because I'm not at that point where I need GH nor can I afford it. Just hoping you guys can help me with my academic endeavors =].

 

[heavyiron]

I did NOT say or infer IGF testing can distinguish between a GH or an IGF supplement, however it matters not since serum levels are directly proportional.
That is, if either one increases, that change is reflected in the serum level of the other (excluding pathologic disease states).

However because that influence persists much longer with IGF, the analysis becomes MUCH MORE reliable.

Moreover your example (using 50 ng/dl) is a very rare phenomena ESPECIALLY in the context of generic GH. (I've never seen anything close to that with "generic GH")

More importantly because spot GH testing has such a low sensitivity and limited specificity, the value in your example could also be considerably lower than 50 ng/dl, say less than 20ng/dl, yet the product may still be GTG!

Consequently if IGF levels double from baseline the product is legitimate especially if said doubling occurs with 2IU or less.

GH testing simply confers no additional benefit as a means of rGH supplement confirmation, especially if a relative product concentrations is also an objective of analysis

My baseline serum growth hormone has meaured at 0.1-0.4, so 50 x 0.4 = 20ng/mL.

These are the elevations I'm personally seeing when injecting 10iu rHGH about 3 hours later. About a 50 times increase from baseline. OBVIOUSLY I'm injecting GH.

GH serum testing is a useful tool for proving if HGH has been injected.

The purpose of the article is to prove if someone has injected HGH not to prove anything else. IGF-1 is a useful tool however it does not prove if HGH was injected IF in fact IGF-1 was injected instead.

 

[Dr JIM]

As you wish.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Cox HD, Rampton J, Eichner D. Quantification of insulin-like growth factor-1 in dried blood spots for detection of growth hormone abuse in sport. Anal Bioanal Chem. Quantification of insulin-like growth factor-1 in dried blood spots for detection of growth hormone abuse in sport - Online First - Springer

There is significant evidence that athletes are using recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) to enhance performance, and its use is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency and professional sports leagues. Insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) is the primary mediator of growth hormone action and is used as a biomarker for the detection of rhGH abuse. The current biomarker-based method requires collection and expedited shipment of venous blood which is costly and may decrease the number of tests performed. Measurement of GH biomarkers in dried blood spots (DBS) would considerably simplify sample collection and shipping methods to allow testing of a greater number of samples regardless of location. A method was developed to quantify intact IGF-1 protein in DBS by liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry. A step-wise acid-acetonitrile extraction was optimized to achieve a sensitive assay with a lower limit of quantification of 50 ng/mL. IGF-1 remained stable at room temperature for up to 8 days, which would allow shipment of DBS cards at ambient temperature. In a comparison between plasma concentrations of IGF-1 and concentrations measured from venous and finger prick DBS, there was good correlation and agreement, r (2) of 0.8551 and accuracy of 86-113 % for venous DBS and r (2) of 0.9586 and accuracy of 89-122 % for finger prick DBS. The method is intended for use as a rapid screening method for IGF-1 to be used in the biomarker method of rhGH abuse detection.

 

[heavyiron]

Doctor Scally,

Do you see the problem of using just IGF-1 testing to prove black market GH? In other words, if IGF-1 is injected then IGF-1 levels will elevate therefore the tester may assume he is injecting GH when in fact he is not. Does this make sense to anyone? I feel like no one is acknowledging this issue.

I understand IGF-1 is used to test KNOWN USA PHARMACY GH but this is the black market. That's the context of my OP.

Once again, (I posted this many times in this thread) I'm not opposed to IGF-1 testing but without serum GH testing we (gym rats) cannot conclusively prove the black market GH is in fact growth hormone. If I am wrong please state why. No one is responding to this point and I'm not sure me making the point 5 times in this thread is useful if its continually ignored.

In addition, the abstract you just posted appears to be a testing method that would be difficult for the average gym rat to aquire. This is impractical and again is not the purpose of the OP. We (gym rats) need an available and inexpensive way to measure GH ourselves.

Think of it in practical terms. An average guy needs to verify his GH is GH after injecting it. How can he verify his GH on his own without the fancy expensive doping tests?

I can order labs from Privatmdlabs right now and get a GH serum test for $42. This is a practical way to verify if I just injected rHGH. For another $70 I can add IGF-1 testing if I want to add it. I have personally done this both ways myself.

Anyway, if gh serum testing is useless for the purposes of the OP I don't understand why.

 

[mands]

Heavyiron for what's its worth the testing you are talking about in my eyes is the only sure fire way to check if you are actually injecting gh. Gh serum level tests show pretty damn accurately if what your injecting is actually gh. Unless the Chinese have figured out a way to fake a compound that can actually raise your gh serum levels. And if they have and it is safe for the community by all means take advantage. These generics are defintetly working to raise gh levels which in turn you should see your IGF levels increase as well.

Sometimes it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks. No offense to anyone. And sometimes the simplest way just doesn't seem right even when it is.

mands

 

[JC3]

I am crude with my hgh igf understanding to say the least. BUT...lol...

I think HI is correct in saying that his protocol is the only way to be sure what you got was GH and not IGF or nothing at all. I also think that doc is saying you can use the igf test because there is no way these generic manufacurers are manufacturing either igf or hgh and the testing is more reliable.

My problem with all of this is that that I believe that they are not making anything. The generics are simply stepped on human grades, igf, or nothing. There is no other plausable explanation. Heavy is right with his methods but it doesn't show if it has been stepped on because of the variances in testing. It does show the precense of gh though. Dr is correct imo that the generic people are all selling shit.

 

[JC3]

Also please excuse my spelling n grammar. I am working on phone.

 

[JC3]

My understanding of generics from "reputable" places:

Big money man buys 100 kits human grade.

Middle mad takes 100 kits and cuts them so that they are now 300 kits.

Buyer buys whateverthefucktop and gets gh but at 1/3 dose.

This all happens cuz everyone needs money for their role in sale. Big money puts his cash up and wants 100 percent return. Have to make 100 kits into 200. Middle man needs his money. Now another hundered kits are needed. 100 into 300. IMO that is the best scenario using generics. Worse is no hgh at all. Just shooting whatever they use to cut it.

If this shit were legal we would all be able to buy it otc and with no questions. If you shoot generics IMO you should pay triple for HG becuz you are getting at least as inferior a product as you save in cost.

Jc3

 

[JC3]

I do not understand the igf testing enough to decide if testing hg gh would provide a base to which cut gh could be measured. I am thinking heavies gh test to test gh and the igf test to see how cut. Is that feasable?

 

[mands]

Totally agree with Dr JIM as well on that!

mands

 

[mormussle]

Good post Heavy iron, I agree , although there is a wide variation between people, if you get a like a 1.2 or some shit on a serum GH test, you at least know your stuff is shit, and not to buy anymore. Personally I will test around 20 on good stuff. Someone els may test 15 on the same stuff, or someone els 30. Hard to know where to draw the line, and you also need to look at the cost of the product. A lower scoring product may still be the best buy. If you do a serum GH test and get less than a 10-12, I would look elsewhere for sure. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dr JIM]

I suspect some are overlooking several points I've attempted to emphasize regarding IGF and GH testing such as;

1) Goodness, because it's well established the myotropic (anabolic) effects from GH are the consequence of elevated IGF levels, who gives a tinkers damn if the product purchased is rGH or rIGF, since both cause IGF levels to increase?

2) When I mentioned earlier I've NEVER observed a 50 fold increase in GH levels from "generic GH".

I was referring to standard testing at ONE to TWO IU and NOT TEN IU, which is what Heavy Iron posted to prove "GH was present".
(I hope this wasn't the GH from "Agent Yes" which he declared earlier "tested well", lol!)

More importantly, the GH elevation was slightly over HALF of what should have been expected using LESS than ONE IU at TEN TIMES THE DOSAGE!

Consequently, although GH "is likely present" the product remains BUNK since it was diluted at least TEN FOLD and achieved roughly HALF the benefit often observed from LESS THAN ONE IU of Pham grade rHGH!

3) rHGH product CONCENTRATIONS can NOT be determined via GH analysis, yet close approximations are achievable via IGF measurements.

That is, in general a dosage of TWO IU should at least DOUBLE IGF concentrations and a dose of FOUR IU should QUADRUPLE it (based on a body weight of 70kg)

4) I've often marveled at the "GH" dose many claim is necessary before the anabolic effects become manifest.
The commonplace BB lore of "needing" TEN" IU for this benefit are NO DOUBT using a grossly diluted pharmaceutical grade.

It's a telling travestry considering the comparative amount of genuine rGH approximates ONE IU!

5) LW, the financial outlay for either GH or IGF is roughly equal, yet in many instances GH is more expensive because of the required "lab prep".

6) Lastly I have personally used GH, yet unfortunately developed debilitating CTS at less than ONE IU of pharm grade necessitating it's discontinuation.
I also have close to FIFTY patients using GH and TWO on IGF whom I am follow therapeutically.

Furthermore, having visited the Lilly Humatrope lab several times, where a colleague is involved in "recombinant biologics", I am VERY familiar with the production requirements, most of which are MANDATORY to ensure a quality product is delivered and rest assured, the only means a "generic facility" can vendor GH is through "stepping on" a "resale"!

In summary, testing GH levels offers NO BENEFIT over IGF as a means of determining "anabolic effectiveness" and last I heard that's is why either is utilized in the sport of BB/lifting!
Regards
Jim

 

[rAJJIN]

Heavy Iron!

Heavy how you been man?
I see you are still hard at work, trying to help the community.

From my part of the community (proM forum)
Ive seen a Lot of experimenting also on the hgh serum testing.
I do believe a guy would be crazy not to use this tool if spending a lot of there money on Chinese hgh. ..

I think it s a useful way to tell if your hgh indeed is hgh or not.
Its surley not as accurate and detailed as a MS-Hplc analysis.
BUT its a very quick "raw" way of finding a yes or no answer to is my hgh real.
also its appx 65$ vs 800$ for the lab analyzing

 

[rAJJIN]

Dr.Jim
We spent a little over 6,000 last year as a group on testing some HGH and "Folli"
It was done by a famous Medical school and University in Boston called TUFTS.
I can share the scanns if you or any of the guys are interested. Heavy was around I think when we did the tests.

Most were fake, two china brands came back pretty good. One in the 85% range, the other in the 75% range if I remember correct. Hgh present
but no where close to the same purity as the Sandoz Omnitrope we sent them.
It was 97.5% pure (its why I laugh when I see some claim 99% )

 

[Dr JIM]

MM
If your predosing "rGH" at 10IU (as HI has suggested) and high end analysis reveals a spot GH level of only 20ng/dl, the product is BUNK, and you should demand an immediate refund, lol!