Issue with GW?

[vgc]

I found it! The 6.2 human equivalent dose (HED) conversion is based on 60-kg human. FYI, the exact formula for higher bodyweights is:

HED = animal dose in mg/kg x (animal weight in kg/human weight in kg)
0.33

View attachment 20439

Source: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/Guidances/UCM078932.pdf[/QUOTE

I knew I remembered 6.2 from somewhere.

At any rate, the 5 mg/kg rat and 3 mg/kg mouse doses that caused widespread cancers in multiple systems are far too close to what guys are actually using (after doing the conversion) for comfort. Dylan and Co repeatedly state that since people are using well under the 3-5 mg/kg doses that caused cancer in rodents, it's perfectly safe. The never do the HED calculations, of course.

Obviously, rodents aren't perfect human models, but given how extreme the effects of this drug were, I think discretion is the better part of valor for this one.

Normally I'm not one to scold people for drug use (PEDs or otherwise), but using this stuff is just too risky. There are so many PEDs out there with well researched safety profiles that using these kinds of drugs is tough to justify, IMHO.

 

[Xodusforever]

I've run GW for years - great compound. Sarms1 was pinkish goo that seemed bunk to me - The powdered gw and lgd from phantom labz is g2g, but don't expect gear results. Even epistane outperformed a gw/lgd/mk stack for me - I have very different reasons for running gw, and the anti diabetic effect is what I'm after - but for gear and bb'ing, gw is pricey and doesn't deliver the performance of tried and true hormones.

At 2$ a gram, high test + AI will blow sarms away - bloat got you down? Dial in a very low dose of letro - you will dry the fuck out on high test. Letro / test is the best $$$$ / performance IMHO.

 

[vgc]

Always 2 sides to every issue, this debate has full scientific research behind it, here you go guys: http://www.evolutionary.org/gw-501516-cardarine-cancer

Sometimes we forget we are in the steroid world, and there are innate risks in everything we do - especially in our industry. No one discusses the cancer dangers of tren, or liver cancer dangers of anadrol, but we are jumping on 1 particular drug as dangerous because it's a "hear-say" argument.

Oral Steroids and cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15849280
We report two very different cases of adult male bodybuilders who developed hepatocellular adenomas following AAS abuse. The first patient was asymptomatic but had two large liver lesions which were detected by ultrasound studies after routine medical examination. The second patient was admitted to our hospital with acute renal failure and ultrasound (US) studies showed mild hepatomegaly with several very close hyperecogenic nodules in liver, concordant with adenomas at first diagnosis. In both cases the patients have evolved favourably and the tumours have shown a tendency to regress after the withdrawal of AAS.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15495253
"Thirty-six FA cases and 97 non-FA cases with both nonhematologic disorders and acquired aplastic anemia (non-FA AA) were identified. The most common androgens were oxymetholone, methyltestosterone, and danazol. Hepatocellular carcinomas (HCC) were more often associated with oxymetholone and methyltestosterone, while adenomas were associated with danazol. Tumors were reported in six patients who received only parenteral and not oral androgens. FA patients were younger than non-FA patients when androgen use was initiated, and the FA patients developed tumors at younger ages. Non-AA patients were treated with androgens for longer periods of time, compared with FA and non-FA AA patients. All patients on anabolic androgenic steroids are at risk of liver tumors, regardless of underlying diagnosis."

That site is associated with people who sell GW (and SARMs), so it's hardly unbiased. The meat of their argument for safety is that people don't run it at 5mg/kg, which totally ignores the need for HED calculations. The fact that different PPAR agonists have shown both pro- and anti-oncogenic properties doesn't add much weight to the argument for GW's in vivo safety in humans.

The toxicity of oral steroids is well known, and well documented. There's a sticky on the subject on this board. PED use unquestionably has potential negative health consequences, but the risks are much more predictable and easier to manage than GW. Generally speaking, the risks associated with short term use of orals at moderate doses are low (unless combined with other hepatoxic compounds), whereas the risks of GW use are a total question mark, save the fact that it was so carcinogenic in rodents at HED of under 1 mg/kg (and as low as .25 mg/kg in mice) that GSK immediately stopped development, and issued an unprecedented warning to the WADA.

Like I said in my first post, if you want to take the word of someone selling the stuff on the grey market over the researchers at GSK who sunk millions into its development before shelving it over safety concerns, that's on you, but I think that would be a tremendously stupid thing to do. Do you honestly believe the company that spent millions developing the drug had such an inept group of scientists working for it that an internet supplement seller with zero credentials could prove them wrong in a few paragraphs?

It's your body, but that's a big risk to take.

 

[Millard]

I knew I remembered 6.2 from somewhere.

Thank you for bringing up the HED calculations. The topic of extrapolating rat doses to human doses came up when WADA issued its alert on GW1516. But I didn't account for HED:

Human trials with GW1516 use 2.5mg, 5mg, or maximum of 10mg as the total daily dosage.

If we extrapolated the dosages (5/20/40-mg/kg/day) used in rats to a 200 lb bodybuilder, we're talking 454mg, 1,814mg or 3,629mg per day

Even if these dosages caused cancer in humans, it doesn't mean 2.5mg will.

It doesn't mean it won't either.

But what can the rat data really tell us about its use in humans?

Source: https://thinksteroids.com/community...w501516-aka-gw1516-endurobol.134336393/page-2

 

[vgc]

It's an easy thing to overlook, especially given how high the rodent doses were in absolute terms compared to the doses athletes use. Doing the HED brings GW from the sketchy category to the "You're nuts to be a guinea pig for that" category. The lowest rat dose is about double what's often used after HED calcs, and the mouse dose is VERY close to what people use.

MAYBE it is harmless, but given the consequences, it seems stupid to risk a maybe.

 

[golfer34]

Lots of good info in this thread.

I wasn't aware that Gemelli was not a favorite among you all. Glad I know now

 

[golfer34]

What do you all like to cut and burn fat?

 

[Rocks Off]

What do you all like to cut and burn fat?

Do a search for albuterol. Others like clenbutrol. Others like T3. Others combine substances. Seriously, use the search function here and start reading. If you don't want to learn all you can learn before taking something, albuterol has the fewest sides.

 

[indyfitguy]

I have read it can cause cancer. That's all I need to know.

Aspartame and pesticides cause cancer...Do you drink diet soda or any artificial sweetners or eat fruits veggies that aren't organic? Same difference. Any chemical in high enough doses will cause cancer in lab rats.

 

[indyfitguy]

Just curious though. If GW doesn't work why would it be banned by athletic commission? From Wiki

GW501516 (also known as GW-501,516, GW1516, GSK-516 and Endurobol[2]) is a PPARδreceptor agonist that was previously investigated for drug use by GlaxoSmithKline. The drug was discovered to cause cancer in rats and GlaxoSmithKline has ceased development.[3][4] It activates the same pathways activated through exercise, including PPARδ and AMP-activated protein kinase. It had been investigated as a potential treatment for obesity, diabetes, dyslipidemia and cardiovascular disease.[5][6] GW501516 has a synergistic effect when combined with AICAR: the combination has been shown to significantly increase exercise endurance in animal studies more than either compound alone.

 

[indyfitguy]

Maybe the GW SARMS is selling is bunk but we can't discredit there must be some validity that the real product works.

 

[Pimppapa1977]

Def not enough is known about SARMS to even use them..I do know that GW causes cancer in lab rats..and not just a small percentage of them..all of them..I wouldn't put that shit in me..read up..I'd pin over that garbage any day

 

[indyfitguy]

Def not enough is known about SARMS to even use them..I do know that GW causes cancer in lab rats..and not just a small percentage of them..all of them..I wouldn't put that shit in me..read up..I'd pin over that garbage any day

Thanks for the input!

 

[indyfitguy]

Just for the record...eating snatch also causes cancer! Throat cancer according to Michael Douglas lol disclaimer "only if she has HPV!"

 

[Pimppapa1977]

I remember seeing that shit lol hpv

 

[Pimppapa1977]

Speaking of this my wife just starts typing it..look it may help while cutting..jkn lol

 

[indyfitguy]

Speaking of this my wife just starts typing it..look it may help while cutting..jkn lol

Hilarious!

 

[Millard]

Def not enough is known about sarms to even use them.

I think there is enough info. @Bill Roberts has answered this question several times over the years.

2014: The Use of SARMs During Steroid Cycles or PCT

2012: SARMs for Post Cycle Therapy?

2010: Are SARMs Effective for Post Cycle Therapy?

And @Michael Scally MD answered questions about SARMs even earlier:

2009: SARMs S4 and PCT?