MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
join pain on hrt
- Thread starter BigRagu
- Start date
I have had this problem from day one been on TRT for 22 yrs. I only felt good if my T levels were over 800 best at 1000. Before I found out about high E2 in men I had a lot of bladder infections. The stress of the infection would bring down my T levels Dr. said that stress and infections will eat up the T meds. I could tell my levels were going down because my joints and muscles would start hurting. About 5 yrs ago when Androgel came out I was put in it and felt good but as time went on my joints and muscles started hurting. My Dr. and me not thinking felt it was Arthritis and I was put on meds for it. Yet as time went on it got worse to the point I became house bound my back hurt so bad I could hardly walk when I first stood up. It got so bad I was on pain pills. I posted at the H2 group about my problem and one of the guys got back to me saying he tried Androgel and his joints and muscles started hurting so he went back to shots 100 mgs. every 10 days. I told my Dr. about this and reminded him about my levels going down from an infection and how my joints and muscles would hurt. We started on T shots 100 mgs. a week and little by little my pain was getting better. But I did not feel good because my T levels were only up to 600 so my Dr. upped the shot to 150 and man I was able to go walking for exercise again. But still my levels were to low so I got my Dr. to add HCG now I feel the best I every felt my levels went up to 1087. I started going to the gym and working out 3 days a week and last yr. lost over 65 lbs.BigRagu said:
I was on Androgel (10mg/wk) for about 5 months and at around the second or third month I started having inner knee joint pain and lower back muscle pain. After testing my E2 wasnt high although probably not optimal at 43 (RR: < 56). In fact, the only lab result coming back high was DHT at 778.5 (RR: 155-553) which from what I hear isnt really something to worry about. Still, its seems like its the only thing it can be unless Im missing a test for something.
As a result I just switched to 100mg/wk shots about a week ago and so far I still have the pain but its probably too early to see any difference yet.
So yes, with Androgel I did/do get joint and muscle pain but Im not sure why.
As a result I just switched to 100mg/wk shots about a week ago and so far I still have the pain but its probably too early to see any difference yet.
So yes, with Androgel I did/do get joint and muscle pain but Im not sure why.
I have had joint pain on hrt for the last 6 months or so
and was getting so bad I had a hard time getting out of bed, with stiff hands, legs and stiff back. I was taking glucosamine, msm, fish oil, diclofenac,and nothing helped. i finally got tired of taking so many pills a day and quit everything for about 5 days. Figured I needed the test the most so I started back at about one fourth the amount I had been taking, I was using 20% compounded t gel 60g a month, I was also taking 1iu growth hormone 5 days a week. after about 10 days the joint pain was gone. I still havent started back on the gh, and no blood tests to see if my t levels are good but I feel great. Right now it seems like i was doing too much of the t gel and it was causing joint pain.
and was getting so bad I had a hard time getting out of bed, with stiff hands, legs and stiff back. I was taking glucosamine, msm, fish oil, diclofenac,and nothing helped. i finally got tired of taking so many pills a day and quit everything for about 5 days. Figured I needed the test the most so I started back at about one fourth the amount I had been taking, I was using 20% compounded t gel 60g a month, I was also taking 1iu growth hormone 5 days a week. after about 10 days the joint pain was gone. I still havent started back on the gh, and no blood tests to see if my t levels are good but I feel great. Right now it seems like i was doing too much of the t gel and it was causing joint pain.
Axl
New Member
I've had joint pain all my life, esp. inner knees and very sore wrists. These pains have gone away completely since I've started TRT (I have been hypogonodal all my life with average T-levels of 198 ng/dl).
My best guess is that increasing T increases IGF-1, which increases HGH-levels. My experience is the opposite from what I read in this postings: most got joint aches during TRT, while in my case the joint aches stopped when I commenced TRT.
I think a longlasting hormonal imbalance causes the joint pain (but I don't know which hormones...I suspect E2, Cortisol and others, and yes: collagen synthesis is the culprit OMHO)...If you guys have become hypogonadal after adulthood, maybe this joint pain is the first sign of an impaired hormonal balance...
Now, if we put my experience together with pmgamers experience and with all the rest here, this assumption doesn't sound that bad, huh???
My best guess is that increasing T increases IGF-1, which increases HGH-levels. My experience is the opposite from what I read in this postings: most got joint aches during TRT, while in my case the joint aches stopped when I commenced TRT.
I think a longlasting hormonal imbalance causes the joint pain (but I don't know which hormones...I suspect E2, Cortisol and others, and yes: collagen synthesis is the culprit OMHO)...If you guys have become hypogonadal after adulthood, maybe this joint pain is the first sign of an impaired hormonal balance...
Now, if we put my experience together with pmgamers experience and with all the rest here, this assumption doesn't sound that bad, huh???
I feel your on to something here. My Dr. feels the gels did not get the T levels up high enough and for some reason gels and creams don't get the testosterone to the joints and muscles for some men. We need Testosterone to have healthy joints and muscles. The gels and creams going through my skin did not get the T where I needed it. And if my levels go down to low the pain starts to come back it is slow but there. I am not alone on this a lot of guys have posted having this problem at the H2 group and switched to shots and it is gone.Axl said:
hey maybe it's the heavy weights i use in training.... i'm stronger now then i have ever been but it just feels like last year was the year i could really start to feel the stress..........pmgamer18 said:
i wonder if it is true that more test would create more igf1...... btw i'm shots now of around 120mg a week and i'm somewhere around the very top of the normal range...........
I have been sick with Bronchitis and a sinus infection just finished the 4th round of Antibiotics. I have not been able to work out for 7 weeks and I miss it big time. Getting my levels up adding HCG helped me to feel so dam good I was able to get back to walking after being house bound for over 2 yrs. Nine months ago I started going to the gym and working out 3 days a week I could not believe how fast I got stronger. I tried working out last week and had a hard time felt to weak and it was hard to breathe. I hate this shit I end up on my ass every winter with this.BigRagu said:
Axl
New Member
BigRagu said:
Here is an article from JCEM: "Short-Term Testosterone Supplementation Relieves Growth Hormone Autonegative Feedback in Men"
"
In summary, short-term Te supplementation decreases rhGH-imposed negative feedback on basal GH secretion and enhances early escape of GH from autoinhibition. In principle, such actions could potentiate the renewal of high-amplitude pulses of GH in androgen-replete individual
"
See this link:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1285?maxtoshow=&HITS=130&hits=130&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=testosterone+supplementation+IGF-1&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1139501532144_3452&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance
Axl
New Member
Here is another article. This time from the European Journal of Endocrinology: "Testosterone supplementation in healthy older men drives GH and IGF-I secretion without potentiating peptidyl secretagogue efficacy"
Source: http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/4/577
Objective: Testosterone supplementation increases GH and IGF-I concentrations in healthy older men via unknown mechanisms. We examine the hypotheses that (i) testosterone amplifies stimulation of GH secretion by GH-releasing peptide (GHRP)-2 or GH-releasing hormone (GHRH) infused with L-arginine to limit somatostatin outflow (i.e. upregulates each agonistic pathway), (ii) testosterone augments the effect of both peptidyl secretagogues infused together (i.e. reduces opposition by hypothalamic somatostatin) and (iii) abdominal visceral fat (AVF) mass is a negative determinant of specific secretagogue-stimulated GH secretion.
Design: Randomized double-blind crossover design of placebo versus testosterone administration in healthy older men.
Methods: Deconvolution analysis was used to estimate basal GH secretion and the mass (integral) and waveform (time-shape) of GH secretory bursts.
Results: Statistical contrasts revealed that administration of testosterone compared with placebo in seven men aged 6077 years increased fasting concentrations of GH (P < 0.01) and IGF-I (P = 0.003), and basal (P < 0.005) and pulsatile (P < 0.01) GH secretion. Testosterone did not alter the absolute value or rank order of secretagogue efficacy: L-arginine/GHRP-2 (23-fold effect over saline) = GHRH/GHRP-2 (20-fold) > L-arginine/GHRH (7.5-fold). Waveform reconstruction indicated that each stimulus pair accelerated initial GH secretion within a burst (P < 0.01). Regression analysis disclosed a significant inverse association between GH secretory-burst mass and computer tomography-estimated AVF following stimulation with L-arginine/GHRH after testosterone supplementation (R2 = 0.54, P = 0.015).
Conclusion: Supraphysiological testosterone concentrations augment GH and IGF-I production in the elderly male without altering maximal somatotrope responses to single and combined GHRH and GHRP-2 drive, thus predicting multifactorial mechanisms of testosterone upregulation.
Source: http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/4/577
Objective: Testosterone supplementation increases GH and IGF-I concentrations in healthy older men via unknown mechanisms. We examine the hypotheses that (i) testosterone amplifies stimulation of GH secretion by GH-releasing peptide (GHRP)-2 or GH-releasing hormone (GHRH) infused with L-arginine to limit somatostatin outflow (i.e. upregulates each agonistic pathway), (ii) testosterone augments the effect of both peptidyl secretagogues infused together (i.e. reduces opposition by hypothalamic somatostatin) and (iii) abdominal visceral fat (AVF) mass is a negative determinant of specific secretagogue-stimulated GH secretion.
Design: Randomized double-blind crossover design of placebo versus testosterone administration in healthy older men.
Methods: Deconvolution analysis was used to estimate basal GH secretion and the mass (integral) and waveform (time-shape) of GH secretory bursts.
Results: Statistical contrasts revealed that administration of testosterone compared with placebo in seven men aged 6077 years increased fasting concentrations of GH (P < 0.01) and IGF-I (P = 0.003), and basal (P < 0.005) and pulsatile (P < 0.01) GH secretion. Testosterone did not alter the absolute value or rank order of secretagogue efficacy: L-arginine/GHRP-2 (23-fold effect over saline) = GHRH/GHRP-2 (20-fold) > L-arginine/GHRH (7.5-fold). Waveform reconstruction indicated that each stimulus pair accelerated initial GH secretion within a burst (P < 0.01). Regression analysis disclosed a significant inverse association between GH secretory-burst mass and computer tomography-estimated AVF following stimulation with L-arginine/GHRH after testosterone supplementation (R2 = 0.54, P = 0.015).
Conclusion: Supraphysiological testosterone concentrations augment GH and IGF-I production in the elderly male without altering maximal somatotrope responses to single and combined GHRH and GHRP-2 drive, thus predicting multifactorial mechanisms of testosterone upregulation.
I'm only taking Omega-3 (at RDA), Vitamin C and E (below RDA amount due to taking multivitamin), one 100% RDA Multi-vitamin, Milk Thistle (recommended daily amount), and testosterone. I'm not taking anything that would directly affect hormone levels. Also I was taking all of these for years prior to TRT and never had a problem. Only when I went on TRT with Androgel did I start getting knee and back pain. Go figure!?!?!?
LiquidGib said:
WOW. And I mean WOW.
That is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention a poor reaction to joint supps. (Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM). I just stopped taking them myself and an unexplained pain behind my knee has felt better than is has in over 9 months.
Initially I stopped for a shoulder surgery (I stopped taking anything including multi), the leg felt better, but it had done so before for 7-10 days at a time, before getting bad again. Then it started hurting again after I started the supp., so I stopped and it has totally been pain free since then - by far the longest time in 9 months.
It wasn't even the joint - maybe tendon or muscle - I have no idea and my orthopedic doc couldn't tell me either even though he is a knee and shoulder specialist.
Sorry if I digress, I just felt like I had to mention that because like I said, that is the first time I have ever heard anyone else suggest that those supps could do anything but help. I also stopped a few years ago because I suspected they were weakening my tendons - but the evidence was shaky at best.
Ruper said:
yeah bro, I had started taking glucosamine a couple of years back because of training hurting joints... after a few months I started noticing improvements (definitely in my left elbow which was giving a bit of pain). But last year I started having problems with my knees (clicking, hurting, loose knee caps) and pain in my back, shoulder blade area. It got worse and worse. Then one day I just decided to stop the glucosamine and a few days later I started seeing improvements. I can't really explain what happened but I doubt I will go on a joint supplement again. The thing is, it takes a long time to work and a even longer time to show symptoms of it not working so you could never know that it is causing anything. Right now, having been a couple months on TRT, those particular joint problems are definitely clearing up so I feel good about that.
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