MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

Lab results can I start my 1st cycle

Yo man, as someone who went from quite obese to fit I'm rooting for you. Personally I think statins are horrible and the side effects are not worth it. The higher dose of anabolics you take the more fucked up your lipids will be. Cardio, a very clean diet with lots of fiber, and hydration is the best way to manage lipids. I don't know where your body fat % is now but I would not suggest anyone especially a beginner do a cycle until they get their body fat within a stone's throw of their goal. I saw that your testosterone level was quite low and what I would suggest is trt with hcg that puts you in high normal range. That is plenty for cutting down and you should just do that until you cut down to a healthy body fat percentage. Then consider a cycle. You are probably aromatizing like hell because you have too much body fat.

Anabolics will not help you lose weight. With as much body fat as you have you should be able to lose weight, still make decent gains, and get your health in check on just trt level. That should definitely be your priority right now as you don't have a good foundation to build from yet. The full on cycle is probably harming your health and not really benefiting you for your goals at this point . Get healthy first. There is an Allure and a misconception that if you just blast antibiotics the fat will melt away and you'll just have the body you want. It just doesn't work that way. Get your body fat and your health right, then build upon that solid foundation.

I hope you stick with it and if you keep posting I'm cheering you on man! Stay consistent, stay disciplined and you WILL reach your goals.
 
jay510 said:
yes I’m taking HCG 250iu 3x a week I was on 350mg weekly of Just Test E I dropped it to 250mg a week and primo 250mg a week running both EOD I started last week
Click to expand...

The low cortisol might be an issue due to acth deficiency. So get that checked out once you're done using aas. The low bun is most probably due to before mentioned factors. I see eosinophils have been elevate prior to aas use; you might have some allergies going on there of which you know nothing about?

I haven't looked at your cycle design in the op untill now. And I'm surprised nobody said anything about it. You are a complete novice in regards to aas and you're also completely de-trained. What the hell are you doing running multiple compounds? Seriously, you've absolutely no idea what you're doing, why the hell are you running primo with fucking deca alongside test on your first cycle mate?
 
Jin23 said:
The low cortisol might be an issue due to acth deficiency. So get that checked out once you're done using aas. The low bun is most probably due to before mentioned factors. I see eosinophils have been elevate prior to aas use; you might have some allergies going on there of which you know nothing about?

I haven't looked at your cycle design in the op untill now. And I'm surprised nobody said anything about it. You are a complete novice in regards to aas and you're also completely de-trained. What the hell are you doing running multiple compounds? Seriously, you've absolutely no idea what you're doing, why the hell are you running primo with fucking deca alongside test on your first cycle mate?
Click to expand...
No I’m only taking Test E only I was taking 350mg but now I’m dropped it to test 250mg week and primo 250mg week EOD I added primo just last week because I don’t want to use AI
 
-Maui- said:
That's exactly what they do.
They won't do your job, but they will help you reach your goal.


TRT or TRT+ )) Right!
Click to expand...
I've never seen strong evidence that anabolics help one lose weight. They may help retain or possibly even help build some muscle while one loses fat though. The only way for fat loss is to burn more calories than you consume and anabolics have no mechanism of action that I'm aware of that directly burns fat or accelerates fat burn. GH can be effectively used to help burn fat but it's more complicated than just take it and you lose weight If you're talking about water weight though then sure, some anabolics will help you shed water.
 
UncleBuns said:
I've never seen strong evidence that anabolics help one lose weight. They may help retain or possibly even help build some muscle while one loses fat though. The only way for fat loss is to burn more calories than you consume and anabolics have no mechanism of action that I'm aware of that directly burns fat or accelerates fat burn. GH can be effectively used to help burn fat but it's more complicated than just take it and you lose weight If you're talking about water weight though then sure, some anabolics will help you shed water.
Click to expand...
Of course it's not about direct action on fat.
But indirect effects are enough.
And it's not about water, of course.
Take a look at these articles.
Even oxymetholone reduces fat % despite water retention.

Effect of Oral Anabolic Steroid on Muscle Strength and Muscle Growth in Hemodialysis Patients - PMC

Sarcopenia is common in hemodialysis patients. This study examined whether the anabolic steroid oxymetholone improves muscle mass and handgrip strength in hemodialysis patients and possible mechanisms that might engender such changes. Forty-three ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


If you're interested, we can discuss it ;-)
 
-Maui- said:
Of course it's not about direct action on fat.
But indirect effects are enough.
And it's not about water, of course.
Take a look at these articles.
Even oxymetholone reduces fat % despite water retention.

Effect of Oral Anabolic Steroid on Muscle Strength and Muscle Growth in Hemodialysis Patients - PMC

Sarcopenia is common in hemodialysis patients. This study examined whether the anabolic steroid oxymetholone improves muscle mass and handgrip strength in hemodialysis patients and possible mechanisms that might engender such changes. Forty-three ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


If you're interested, we can discuss it ;-)
Click to expand...
"There was a significantly greater reduction in energy intake in the oxymetholone-treated patients compared with the placebo group"

Energy intake (kcal/kg per d)​
Oxymetholone​
Placebo​
​
  Baseline​
22.2±6.4​
19.1±6.1​
​
  Week 24​
19.8±7.6​
21.3±8.5​
​
  Change from baseline​
−2.4±5.9b​
2.2±6.5​

If you read the study the participants diets were prescribed by a nutritionist during the study. For whatever reason the Oxy group was given a significant reduction in calories over the study time. So it's no surprise they lost fat. All this proves is that calorie reduction causes weight loss. There is no evidence that the AAS caused the fat loss.

I don't think this proves your claim. Do you have a study were calorie intake and daily calorie burn is maintained steady and the only change is the participants taking AAS? That would prove it. This one just shows what we all know. Eat less, lose weight.
 
UncleBuns said:
"There was a significantly greater reduction in energy intake in the oxymetholone-treated patients compared with the placebo group"
Click to expand...
The effect on the liver probably affected his appetite.

UncleBuns said:
I don't think this proves your claim. Do you have a study were calorie intake and daily calorie burn is maintained steady and the only change is the participants taking AAS? That would prove it. This one just shows what we all know. Eat less, lose weight.
Click to expand...
Muscle growth requires a lot of energy.
Increased muscle mass increases energy intake.
Even if there is a caloric surplus, the fat/muscle ratio improves.
It improves metabolism.
Like I said, it's an indirect influence, but my experience says it's a great help.

Oh, and dieting without AAS often reduces muscle mass too!
The fat/muscle ratio is maintained, but energy intake drops.
It's very easy to get even fatter afterward.
 
-Maui- said:
The effect on the liver probably affected his appetite.


Muscle growth requires a lot of energy.
Increased muscle mass increases energy intake.
Even if there is a caloric surplus, the fat/muscle ratio improves.
It improves metabolism.
Like I said, it's an indirect influence, but my experience says it's a great help.

Oh, and dieting without AAS often reduces muscle mass too!
The fat/muscle ratio is maintained, but energy intake drops.
It's very easy to get even fatter afterward.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter what the reason is for decreased calorie intake. Less calories = weight loss. This paper does not show anabolics cause fat loss. Even if they do the effect is so minimal a small calorie surplus would overwhelm that effect. Your experience with fat loss is likely due to other factors you are unaware of such as calorie deficit, sub q water loss, etc. and not AAS directly burning fat. Your muscles can swell on blast as well giving look that appears to be fat loss.

I agree that AAS improves metabolism, but it doesn't make you a fat burning machine. The fact that AAS helps maintain muscle on a cut is well known and proven, but that has nothing to do with direct fat loss effect. Getting fatter after a blast can be caused by a number of factors but it boils down to eating more calories than you burn.

I'm no PhD and definitely not read every paper out there but I've not seen any evidence of this fat loss claim. I would love for it to be true but I think is pure bro science and not true.
 
IMO AAS only helps build muscle mass, which in return will help you lose body fat. but cut down to seeing 6 pack abs then run a cycle imo. i did cut to a 6 pack using trt though. and now im doing sust and primo 2;1 ratio at 8/4 and i feel amazing and make great gains imo. but could also just be actually eating carbs now. so we will see how it turns out when the cut hits in about 30 weeks
 
UncleBuns said:
I'm no PhD and definitely not read every paper out there but I've not seen any evidence of this fat loss claim. I would love for it to be true but I think is pure bro science and not true.
Click to expand...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men - PubMed

Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Conclusions: These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.

Abstract: Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated.

"Several studies have shown that TRT in obese men reduces BMI and visceral fat mass (Rebuffé-Scrive et al. 1991, Mårin et al. 1992a,b, 1995, Saad et al. 2007, 2008, Agledahl et al. 2008). In the double-blinded placebo-controlled Moscow study, 184 men suffering from both MetS and hypogonadism showed significant decreases in weight, BMI and waist circumference following 30 weeks of testosterone replacement to the normal range (Kalinchenko et al. 2010). Other TRT studies have also reported improved body weight, BMI and waist circumference in men with MetS, T2DM and/or hypogonadism (Wang et al. 2000, Boyanov et al. 2003, Woodhouse et al. 2004, Kapoor et al. 2006, Allan et al. 2008, Svartberg et al. 2008, Jones et al. 2011)."

Lots of articles talk about reducing fat mass with steroid use.
It`s not a pure bro science, bro ;-)
 
-Maui- said:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men - PubMed

Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Conclusions: These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.

Abstract: Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated.

"Several studies have shown that TRT in obese men reduces BMI and visceral fat mass (Rebuffé-Scrive et al. 1991, Mårin et al. 1992a,b, 1995, Saad et al. 2007, 2008, Agledahl et al. 2008). In the double-blinded placebo-controlled Moscow study, 184 men suffering from both MetS and hypogonadism showed significant decreases in weight, BMI and waist circumference following 30 weeks of testosterone replacement to the normal range (Kalinchenko et al. 2010). Other TRT studies have also reported improved body weight, BMI and waist circumference in men with MetS, T2DM and/or hypogonadism (Wang et al. 2000, Boyanov et al. 2003, Woodhouse et al. 2004, Kapoor et al. 2006, Allan et al. 2008, Svartberg et al. 2008, Jones et al. 2011)."

Lots of articles talk about reducing fat mass with steroid use.
It`s not a pure bro science, bro ;-)
Click to expand...
but imo most AAS are made to build muscle so through commons sesne of the human body and how the RMR works its understandable that building muscle is how we can destroy fat over all. All we need is to build a bunch of muscle and then slowly restrict calories keeping all the muscle there. Unfortunately that does mean staying on and going from blast to cruise usually
 
BoloYang2023 said:
but imo most AAS are made to build muscle so through commons sesne of the human body and how the RMR works its understandable that building muscle is how we can destroy fat over all. All we need is to build a bunch of muscle and then slowly restrict calories keeping all the muscle there. Unfortunately that does mean staying on and going from blast to cruise usually
Click to expand...
I agree!
Earlier I wrote that AAS is not magic, but just a tool.
 
-Maui- said:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men - PubMed

Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Conclusions: These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.

Abstract: Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated.

"Several studies have shown that TRT in obese men reduces BMI and visceral fat mass (Rebuffé-Scrive et al. 1991, Mårin et al. 1992a,b, 1995, Saad et al. 2007, 2008, Agledahl et al. 2008). In the double-blinded placebo-controlled Moscow study, 184 men suffering from both MetS and hypogonadism showed significant decreases in weight, BMI and waist circumference following 30 weeks of testosterone replacement to the normal range (Kalinchenko et al. 2010). Other TRT studies have also reported improved body weight, BMI and waist circumference in men with MetS, T2DM and/or hypogonadism (Wang et al. 2000, Boyanov et al. 2003, Woodhouse et al. 2004, Kapoor et al. 2006, Allan et al. 2008, Svartberg et al. 2008, Jones et al. 2011)."

Lots of articles talk about reducing fat mass with steroid use.
It`s not a pure bro science, bro ;-)
Click to expand...
I have to admit, I've actually started delving into this topic more as our disagreement got me thinking about how I came to this conclusion. I'm still searching and reading but I've found some things and studies that do indicate AAS helps with fat loss. Do you happen to have a link to the full paper for the study on Oxandralone you linked here? I can't find it. Although I still think the best and strongest way to lose fat is calorie restriction there is more to AAS and lipolysis than I realized. I'm unsure how strong the effect is but there does seem to be a fat loss effect from AAS. It seems to be minor except in obese people there is a stronger effect. The same can be said for calorie restriction though.

I appreciate the discourse and motivation to dig deeper into the topic. Godspeed sir!
 
UncleBuns said:
I have to admit, I've actually started delving into this topic more as our disagreement got me thinking about how I came to this conclusion. I'm still searching and reading but I've found some things and studies that do indicate AAS helps with fat loss. Do you happen to have a link to the full paper for the study on Oxandralone you linked here? I can't find it. Although I still think the best and strongest way to lose fat is calorie restriction there is more to AAS and lipolysis than I realized. I'm unsure how strong the effect is but there does seem to be a fat loss effect from AAS. It seems to be minor except in obese people there is a stronger effect. The same can be said for calorie restriction though.

I appreciate the discourse and motivation to dig deeper into the topic. Godspeed sir!
Click to expand...
Ah, learning. Good to see.
 
I know I’m replying late but I figured I’d give you my input. I heard you shouldnt run primo higher than test because deca weiner don’t just come from unsafe use of deca. Second thing is, this is your first cycle. I wouldn’t make this as complicated as you are making it for your first cycle. Low and slow. 300/mgs test e split twice a week Monday Thursday pin days. The dosage and when to use hcg is very debatable depending on each person. See how you react to the test e. Make sure to get bloods during and after cycle. Best of luck!
 
10 weeks in coming this Weds I hop on the scale I gain 5 pounds since then I’m 270 more tone up the fat is coming off little by little been getting a lot of compliments from everyone that knows me coming down from 305 lbs of Fat I have a lot more to go and I definitely is welcomed the challenge it’s a marathon not a race I also want to thank everyone who been giving me advice I really appreciate itIMG_1696.jpegIMG_1695.jpeg
 
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