Letro for PCT

[deez.nuts]

go easy on me..this site has been great in terms of learning the nitty gritty, but i don't have a firm grasp yet on post cycle therapy..how does Letro (letrozole) fit into this? Can it be used to replace nolva (tamoxifen)?? And if so, it appears to be a bit stronger..how much should be run during PCT? Thanks guys


dz

 

[Bill Roberts]

The purpose of letrozole is to control estrogen levels, with the typical goal being the low end of normal.

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and clomiphene (Clomid) and the SERMs in general don't control estrogen levels but do, in some tissues, block the action of estrogen. They also in other tissues can act as estrogens.

You bring up what would be a good subject to look into again. Quite some time back I did an exhaustive literature study on everything affecting LHRH and LH production, and I found reason to think that SERMs benefit LH production not only via anti-estrogenic effect but also via estrogenic effect in the hypothalamus or pituitary -- I'm afraid I don't recall which. That would bear looking into again.

Personally, I've tried using just letrozole post-cycle and did fine with it, but it seems I am at the better end of the range with regard to easy recovery from cycles. I consider the traditional SERM-based approach to be by far the most proven and continue to recommend it.

That said, controlling estrogen levels to low-normal post-cycle, if they otherwise would be, cannot be a bad thing. And so there's nothing unreasonable about combining the approaches, providing that the anti-aromatase dosage (e.g. letrozole) is not excessive. It definitely works fine to do that.

 

[toothache]

So if you are on cycle and see signs of gyno (puffy, itchy nipples, lump), letro would be fine to go on and knock it out, right? What would the dosage be? 2.5mg eod? For how long? Lower the dosage after the gyno is gone?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I like what Bill Roberts had to say about PCT. Further expounding on what I hope is his opinion, I do not use AI at all for PCT. I use clomiphene and tamoxifen for very specific reasons. I believe Bill is referring to the mixed agonist/antagonist effect of clomiphene and its possible CNS effect.

However, my aversion to AI use for PCT is simpler. The entire and whole purpose is to restore T levels. This is the net of synthesis and degradation. The use of an AI "falsely" elevates the T level by decreasing degradation. Yes, it acts centrally, but the decreased degradation does not really help the purpose to increase synthesis, which is what we want.

Anyway, I have experience in over a thousand patients on HPTA restoration using clomiphene and tamoxifen so clearly I have a bias based on real numbers. Our company, HPT/Axis, is exploring a treatment for androgen induced hypogonadism (i.e., PCT). Stay Tuned.

 

[deez.nuts]

The purpose of letrozole is to control estrogen levels, with the typical goal being the low end of normal.

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and clomiphene (Clomid) and the SERMs in general don't control estrogen levels but do, in some tissues, block the action of estrogen. They also in other tissues can act as estrogens.

You bring up what would be a good subject to look into again. Quite some time back I did an exhaustive literature study on everything affecting LHRH and LH production, and I found reason to think that SERMs benefit LH production not only via anti-estrogenic effect but also via estrogenic effect in the hypothalamus or pituitary -- I'm afraid I don't recall which. That would bear looking into again.

Personally, I've tried using just letrozole post-cycle and did fine with it, but it seems I am at the better end of the range with regard to easy recovery from cycles. I consider the traditional SERM-based approach to be by far the most proven and continue to recommend it.

That said, controlling estrogen levels to low-normal post-cycle, if they otherwise would be, cannot be a bad thing. And so there's nothing unreasonable about combining the approaches, providing that the anti-aromatase dosage (e.g. letrozole) is not excessive. It definitely works fine to do that.

Thanks for the great feedback.....

I will be running test -e at 500mgs a week for 12 weeks, and then PCT. This is my first cycle, and i gotta make sure i get this pct right. So i can possibly run letrozole and nolvadex together, but you recommend just the serm, nolvadex, correct...thanks again

dz

 

[Michael Scally MD]

A standard course for someone taking a T ester, as you are doing, would be the use of AI during AAS administration. This will keep E2 within normal levels (<50), reduce or eliminate side effects from excess E2, and decrease the E2 effect centrally. The AI dose is typically arimidex 0.5/ letrozole 1.25 EOD. I have all patients return to check the E2 level at 30 days. Adjustment is made depending on the E2 level. For reasons I state above, I do not recommend AI use for PCT.

 

[IronFront]

Any thoughts on Aromasin rather than Adex being used on cycle?

Just wondering about estrogen rebound after Adex.

 

[newbie23]

Aromasin is the superior AI-i would use that exclusively unless i needed letro for a severe case of gyno.

Also aromasin has some benefits regarding LH.

Aromasin is by far the best sides vs benefits AI-for long term use

 

[newbie23]

if your worried about rebound-it would be best to taper off any AI that you use.

 

[newbie23]

if someone were to use letro to control estrogen levels-2.5mg is problably too high

start with .6mg E3D and work your way up from there.

 

[IronFront]

I thought Aromasin was a suicide inhibitor and, as such, didn't require tapering off. Does it still require a taper?

Running 500 mgs of Test E (with the occasional pre work-out dbol) right now with 12.5 mgs of Aromasin EOD.

Was going to run Aromasin and Clomid for PCT, now considering Nolva and Clomid.

 

[carter]

Thanks for the great feedback.....

I will be running test -e at 500mgs a week for 12 weeks, and then PCT. This is my first cycle, and i gotta make sure i get this pct right. So i can possibly run letrozole and nolvadex together, but you recommend just the serm, nolvadex, correct...thanks again

dz

i would simply run the nolva for your pct...you may want the letro on hand during your cycle, but i wouldn't think you'd need it. BUT...better safe than sorry, and if you'r inclined to have it, great

 

[newbie23]

I thought Aromasin was a suicide inhibitor and, as such, didn't require tapering off. Does it still require a taper?

Running 500 mgs of Test E (with the occasional pre work-out dbol) right now with 12.5 mgs of Aromasin EOD.

Was going to run Aromasin and Clomid for PCT, now considering Nolva and Clomid.

IMO clomid and nolva is overkill-i wont run nolva with tren or deca-so i use clomid-now i know if it works for me so i will stick with the clomid.

i do not taper aromasin-but if your worried about it go ahead.

HCG is by far the most important aspect of PCT.

 

[terresw]

The purpose of letrozole is to control estrogen levels, with the typical goal being the low end of normal.

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and clomiphene (Clomid) and the SERMs in general don't control estrogen levels but do, in some tissues, block the action of estrogen. They also in other tissues can act as estrogens.

You bring up what would be a good subject to look into again. Quite some time back I did an exhaustive literature study on everything affecting LHRH and LH production, and I found reason to think that SERMs benefit LH production not only via anti-estrogenic effect but also via estrogenic effect in the hypothalamus or pituitary -- I'm afraid I don't recall which. That would bear looking into again.

Personally, I've tried using just letrozole post-cycle and did fine with it, but it seems I am at the better end of the range with regard to easy recovery from cycles. I consider the traditional SERM-based approach to be by far the most proven and continue to recommend it.

That said, controlling estrogen levels to low-normal post-cycle, if they otherwise would be, cannot be a bad thing. And so there's nothing unreasonable about combining the approaches, providing that the anti-aromatase dosage (e.g. letrozole) is not excessive. It definitely works fine to do that.

This is interesting. I recently read an article/study which showed the zuclomiphene isomer of clomid had NO effect on raising T levels and it was the enclomiphene isomer of clomid oNLY that had a positice effect on serum t levels.

 

[dfein]

Does anybody know the difference between Enclomiphene and Clomiphene? Obviously the mechanism is to work on negative feedback of the HPTA, which Clomiphene does indeed do, but what does Enclomiphene do differently?

 

[Millard]

Does anybody know the difference between Enclomiphene and Clomiphene? Obviously the mechanism is to work on negative feedback of the HPTA, which Clomiphene does indeed do, but what does Enclomiphene do differently?

Clomiphene is composed of two different isomers, zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. I believe the former isomer has estrogenic activity and the latter anti-estrogenic.

 

[arbitrage]

maybe i'm blind but i find when i take some letro during cycle it makes me tighter and i feel like i'm holding less water. i don't need it for gyno, but i use it off and on because it dries me out.